High Tide Aquatics

Atlantic Coral Collection current rules?

anathema

anathema

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So I've been watching this thread on RC:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1953435&page=2

The guy is in Brasil, and has seen some cool scolymia he wants to buy in an LFS, but is unsure of the legality.

This got me researching, and I'm coming up with a lot of confusing stuff, but no clear answer. When I was in Brasil(5 or so yrs ago), I saw lots of cool stuff, and assumed that I wouldn't be able to get it back to the US. I also saw several types of Atlantic hard coral for sale in Brasil, even though it was my understanding that there was a ban on collection of any Atlantic hard coral in place by some organization somewhere.

This is all too nebulous for me. :)

Are Atlantic corals illegal to collect, and says who? Is it up to each country individually? I know they are illegal to import into the US, but what about owning them in other countries? It's my understanding that it is illegal to import Atlantic coral because the US is a CITES member and no permits are issued, but is this the real reason? What governs collection in waters in places such as Haiti, if you live in Haiti?

When I was in Brasil I asked about several hard corals such as a nice meandrina brasiliensis, and the LFS guy said that he didn't know if it was legal or not, someone just brought it into his store to sell and he bought it. If this seems odd to you, keep in mind the "store" was in a favela and made out of plywood. I also saw quite a few borderline legal animals for sale in the street markets, and there appeared to be no enforcement of any kind in sight. I'm sure that would change the minute you tried to bring the animal on an international flight, but it makes me wonder.

Can anyone recommend a site or resource that would allow me to familiarize myself with the laws regarding international trade in animals? Bonus if it's coral specific. I've always just assumed it's a bad idea to think of bringing something home when I travel, but I'd like to know as much as I can.
 
Well any rules regarding collection of corals off THEIR waters is up to the sole discretion of the country.

Other than that, I'm sure there are others here that are way my knowledgeable than me on the subject.
 
I'm no where close to know all or some of the how, where, whom but I believe Federal Government's agency in charge of natural resources would be the first to state the rules if any or plainly forbid. Then the country if member of X or Y international organization would abide by the agreements/rules, etc and of course the trade agreements between origin/destination.
Some countries, as Mexico prohibits and makes a federal offense to take/posses/damage and many other things in regards of it's littoral.
Still people get their live rock from nice beaches, sand and X; think is easier to get marine life from overseas than Mexico itself.
I think it would be a head ache to try such.
 
sfsuphysics:

That's my point. Common sense tells me that, but I've heard many many times that it's illegal to collect ANY atlantic hard coral, regardless of country boundaries. Where does this rumor come from? Is it just a rumor?
 
Well it could be because they signed a treaty not to do so. Similar to signing a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, where you promise not to make nuclear weapons or something to that effect. In that sense its "illegal" for your country to do so, however as shown in the past you can break that treaty at any moment and go crazy making nukes if you want.

Over all if it's illegal to take hard corals it's because Brazil did something to make it illegal.
 
tuberider said:
Correct Mike, also, if you want to transport then you are beholden to C.I.T.E.S. laws.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for you (no second I).

I believe Brazil has banned all coral collection. I know they banned the export of it and numerous fish species as well. Several Atlantic countries allow collection *if* you get the permit but most make it so hard to get you probably shouldn't even try (like Mexico). Problem is you can not export it to the United States since several species are on the endangered species list and the US has banned all stony coral collection in it's waters. If our governement had its way, we'd ban collection in other countries as well.

There is only one species of Scolymia found in the Atlantic... Scolymia cubensis

Scolymia%20cubensis05.jpg

Scolymia%20cubensis04.jpg

Scolymia%20cubensis03.jpg

Scolymia%20cubensis02.jpg

Scolymia%20cubensis01.jpg


Direct your friend here: http://coralpedia.bio.warwick.ac.uk/en/corals/scolymia_cubensis.html
 
xcaret said:
I'm no where close to know all or some of the how, where, whom but I believe Federal Government's agency in charge of natural resources would be the first to state the rules if any or plainly forbid. Then the country if member of X or Y international organization would abide by the agreements/rules, etc and of course the trade agreements between origin/destination.
Some countries, as Mexico prohibits and makes a federal offense to take/posses/damage and many other things in regards of it's littoral.
Still people get their live rock from nice beaches, sand and X; think is easier to get marine life from overseas than Mexico itself.
I think it would be a head ache to try such.
Click to expand...

With all the Federal check points in Mexico now I sure wouldn't try. When I was working at Cortez Marine years back our van would hit like 9 check points on it's way to the airport.
 
Most of the check points "used" to be in the North part of the Republic but bet now is everywhere. The last thing someone would ask for is a Federal charge. One aquarist says there are permits but as Gresh mentions is hard. Is also mentioned on the reply one Enterprise (Not academic/scientific mentioned) has permits to collect species in the Gulf region with "Investigation" purposes but it (the Ent.) has not managed to keep the corals alive. To his statement/opinion, as long as they have a permit there's no felony but as far as handling their "investigation", it's a crime.
 
There are several permits for non coral collection in Baja, none in the Yucatan (yet). In Baja there are a few permits rolling that are commercial and one that is "by-catch (Sonora) for fish and inverts. I have not heard about the "coral research" permit yet for corals but I know just who to talk to about this :) I wonder if that is the group in the park system.

Our permit allowed us to collect gorgonians, polyps, etc but you could not have ANY live rock (Scleractinia) attached, it all had to be igneous rock so the people looking at it could tell it was not Scleractinia. The funny thing was, Mexico issued us a permit to export black coral (with the proper latin name) even though they are not set up to export CITES coral. We never used that quota as we knew it was illegal to import those into the US with out the proper permits.
 
Yeah, Yucatan Peninsula seems to be a solid NO on anything.
I remember as a kid one of my aunts used to travel to Quintana Roo quite often and would bring these expensive black and red necklaces and earrings; I do recall later (still in my childhood) a ban on collecting black and/or red? coral. I'm referring to the late 70's early 80's
 
It's actually semi open (which is why I said yet). I know a group that is working on their permit. That work has been put on hold while they obtain another couple permits on the Pac side of Baja and within the Sea of Cortez. The Yucatan will simply be for a few items its plentiful of, like condylactus anemones and corallimorphs as well as certain fish.

Yah they banned it (red/blk coral) a long time ago IIRC. That's how messed it the oversight is... they gave us permits for something they banned. They simply did not know the scientific name for it (or maybe they wanted to get us in trouble?).

The odd thing about MO permits in Mexico is:
1. You not only have to get Federal permits, you need state permits as well
2. You have to declare who you are shipping to prior to the permit being issued then you can ONLY ship to them

The good thing is they work on quota systems.

The stupid part is for MO it's done per item and for food it's done by the tonnage. Food should be done by per item, not tonnage.
 
Food per item is hugely labor intensive. My dad still tells stories of delivering salmon with a peevee and having the guy on the tender count his fish with a clicker. The offload takes exponentially longer, the fishermen get ripped off, and it's loads more work. Profit in modern fisheries is in getting things to be as efficient as possible.

Back to the "treaty" topic, is there really such a thing in existence? It seems to be common knowledge that collecting Atlantic corals is illegal in all cases but where can I look this up? It's entirely possible that it's more of a situation that since the USA does it most countries follow suit, but we all seem to be just guessing at it. It'd be nice to see it in print somewhere.
 
Guess that would be country by country and searching for the different agencies that deal with natural resources; I'll ask but would be for the Mexican side. Roberto is Brasileiro, he might have a lead?
 
GreshamH said:
tuberider said:
Correct Mike, also, if you want to transport then you are beholden to C.I.T.E.S. laws.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for you (no second I).

I believe Brazil has banned all coral collection. I know they banned the export of it and numerous fish species as well. Several Atlantic countries allow collection *if* you get the permit but most make it so hard to get you probably shouldn't even try (like Mexico). Problem is you can not export it to the United States since several species are on the endangered species list and the US has banned all stony coral collection in it's waters. If our governement had its way, we'd ban collection in other countries as well.

There is only one species of Scolymia found in the Atlantic... Scolymia cubensis

Direct your friend here: http://coralpedia.bio.warwick.ac.uk/en/corals/scolymia_cubensis.html
Click to expand...

anathema said:
Food per item is hugely labor intensive. My dad still tells stories of delivering salmon with a peevee and having the guy on the tender count his fish with a clicker. The offload takes exponentially longer, the fishermen get ripped off, and it's loads more work. Profit in modern fisheries is in getting things to be as efficient as possible.

Back to the "treaty" topic, is there really such a thing in existence? It seems to be common knowledge that collecting Atlantic corals is illegal in all cases but where can I look this up? It's entirely possible that it's more of a situation that since the USA does it most countries follow suit, but we all seem to be just guessing at it. It'd be nice to see it in print somewhere.
Click to expand...

Attempt number two at telling you there is no such treaty and ATL coral collection is legal in some countries :D

Can they ship it to the US? Not if it's on of the ones that is one the endangered list, like A. cerviconis and A. palmata.
 
A. Palmata is the one on the forum mentioned as coral being collected, along with "Oculina Varicosa y Diploria Clivosa"
I have friends Brasileiros but their hobby is futebol...
 
xcaret said:
A. Palmata is the one on the forum mentioned as coral being collected, along with "Oculina Varicosa y Diploria Clivosa"
I have friends Brasileiros but their hobby is futebol...
Click to expand...

Interesting, correct me if I'm wrong, in order to collect A. palmata you'd need to go into international waters, or into another counties back yard. Whatever the case it sounds very illegal, not to mention they are most likely killing around %100 of the coral. :~
 
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