Kessil

BAR meeting featuring Richard Ross December 12th 1:00

While I learned a lot from Rich's presentation, I can't help but feel the presenter's frustrations. It's seems counter intuitive to have a Consultant travel so far with the best of intentions only to have the powers that be trample over the best of well laid plans and intentions. My heart goes out to those advocates which give their best efforts to make life better for those that cannot defend themselves. Thank you for your time, commitment and efforts, and for giving us a better understanding of what is taking place half way around the world.
 
I know what you mean Lyn, however I have some mixed feelings, because I can look into my tank, count the hundred plus corals that are in there now and including the number that I've had that have died over the years from various issues (algae, monti eating nudibranchs, inexperience, etc) and probably can count the number of wild corals I bought (or corals I bought in general) on one hand... MAYBE two. Easily 90%+ of my corals were gained through the club in one way or another which shows how bad ass our club is.

Now fish on the other hand is something that I'd like to work on, I don't have very many in my tank, but unfortunately none of them are currently bred accept maybe my tomato clown fish (which was the very first fish I got years ago).
 
Corals are a weed of the ocean. Fish are a dime a dozen and breed like rabbits on steroids.
It's clearly humans that are the problem. Like Rich said, modify your behavior and buy responsibly.
Do the best research you can when you consider a purchase and buy from a reputable source.
The third world is not going to regulate themselves.
I have tried to change my behavior also, in part as a result of being involved in this club.
 
I'm glad Rich's presentation was sobering, we as a club have done amazing things when it comes to corals and fish often times get overlooked. I think in the future we can do the same with fish, we just need to stick together as a club and have an end goal in mind, we can move mountains. Just look at the overall impact of the DBTC program, it has had a nationwide impact :)
 
Thanks again Rich for presenting your insight and feedback around that particular project. Maybe I should fire back up 30 breeders for a new breeding project :D
 
I wish that I could have made it to the meeting yesterday after hearing all the great comments, but with a pregnant wife at home and her neverending "pre-baby honeydo list" there was no way I was getting out of the hosue.

It warms my heart that there is more awareness of CB livestock production and the plight of the wild caught animals that end up in our tanks. Everytime I do an order to get wild fish, it pains me knowing how many have been injured of worse in the process. Unfortunately there will always be a section of the hobby that just cares about the bottom line in getting something cheap, not taking into account the COC of that creature. There are options if CB is not available and not to step on toes or possibly re-hash anything that might have been said at the meeting but MAC certified fish are the next best thing to CB. As far as I know Quality Marine is the only "local" wholesaler who offers these types of animals. I would still prefer 100% CB but the reality of it is that that is just not possible right now with the limited amount of fish in production. That being said .... I am very anxious to see Jim's new store that is going to be 100% CB livestock! This is going to be a pioneering store and extremely exciting!

Remember buying CB only promotes more captive breeding saving the wild fish for our great grand kids to view while snorkeling abroad.

tyler
 
I'm sorry I missed it too! It sounds like Rich gave a great presentation, which is no surprise. I'm leaving for Europe tomorrow, though, and I needed the time to get things together for my trip.
 
cwolfus said:
Great meeting!

One thing Rich didn't mention is that in addition to the fish that die at the LFS or our tanks MANY MANY more die at each stage in the chain of custody. Its been a very long time since I visited a wholesaler/transhipper (10+ years) but it seemed like 20% of the fish they received were DOA. Then more died in their tanks. Then they were packed and shipped to LFSs (where more died). Does anyone know what those numbers are like these days? How many fish die for every one that we buy?
Click to expand...

Damn do you work for the government? They are the only ones that spout such bogus numbers :lol:

Transhippers do not tank fish so they by definition have 0% DOA/DAA. A wholesaler would go out of business with a 20% constant DOA, sorry but that is just totally bogus info your passing along and at the expense of what truly happens. When I was in wholesale we never got above a 3% DOA/DAA COMBINED. The rare time we did was due to poor handling along the CoC by entities we int he trade have no control over, the airlines and the governing agencies.

How many die depends on the fish and how they are $$ percieved. Damsels are the tightest pack so they tend to far worse then let's say Angels that area a higher dollar fish thus resulting in a better packing job. They also are larger fish so their % of the freight is much higher.
 
MorandiWine said:
I wish that I could have made it to the meeting yesterday after hearing all the great comments, but with a pregnant wife at home and her neverending "pre-baby honeydo list" there was no way I was getting out of the hosue.

It warms my heart that there is more awareness of CB livestock production and the plight of the wild caught animals that end up in our tanks. Everytime I do an order to get wild fish, it pains me knowing how many have been injured of worse in the process. Unfortunately there will always be a section of the hobby that just cares about the bottom line in getting something cheap, not taking into account the COC of that creature. There are options if CB is not available and not to step on toes or possibly re-hash anything that might have been said at the meeting but MAC certified fish are the next best thing to CB. As far as I know Quality Marine is the only "local" wholesaler who offers these types of animals. I would still prefer 100% CB but the reality of it is that that is just not possible right now with the limited amount of fish in production. That being said .... I am very anxious to see Jim's new store that is going to be 100% CB livestock! This is going to be a pioneering store and extremely exciting!

Remember buying CB only promotes more captive breeding saving the wild fish for our great grand kids to view while snorkeling abroad.

tyler
Click to expand...

Sea Dwelling Creatures also offers MAC fish.

Almost nearly every fish the trade goes after is in no fear of being decimated by our trade. Food fishing, pollution, etc are their biggest problems. Remove wild fish, you remove the money fishermen get which is MUCH higher then what any other activity they do in situ. Sustainable harvest is possible and is practiced in many regions around the world. If you remove the trade from the islands the pressure on stuff we go after will be much much greater and then there would be true fear of the animals never being seen by your grand kids. Take Baja for example. 30 years of studies have shown a greater number of fish now then ever. This is due to sustainable harvest being practiced. Remove the trade and the divers revert back to the two activities they used to do, work for the drug cartels or poach life from the ocean, mainly groupers and sea turtles. The dye the drug cartels use to mark drug drops is CYANIDE based. That surely is not a good trade off!!!!
 
G- Let's try and keep this on a constructive track, I totally understand wanting to keep things in the factual realm, anecdotal info gets countries into wars with no anthrax, as you know I understand both sides of that evil coin and lament that. There are local wholesalers that are less than ethical (what's in the bottom of that box?), we can agree to that. Captive propagation if done correctly can offset quite a bit of environmental impact in regards to the reefs, I'm sure we can agree to that. Yes, volume makes more money for the folks on the export end of the COC, that is true, regardless as to whether the animals thrive or not over the long term. Yes, the most expensive fish is a dead fish from a B&M stand point. Man, that shit can make your head spin, even if you've been hustling fish for several decades.

I don't think Charles was deifying the industry as a whole, he has limited experience in that regard and even though he's our prez he needs a little slack cut. We know there are limited amounts of real data buried under a bunch of B.S. spouted off by whomever feels like they are the high and mighty altering statistics to make them seem as if they are not part of the problem, in that regard it makes it very difficult for people to discern what is really going on regarding their purchases. The reality is that we ALL are part of the problem, the issue with that IMO is that within the scope of real environmental problems we are a blip on the radar, yet we remain an easy target for those that want to pound their chests. The issue is how can we educate people and help to make a sea change in the industry?

Again, I don't want to cut off communication between the industry/hobbyist we need it now more than ever in order for you and I to keep eating and paying rent :D, but I do understand wanting to keep facts facts, it is important to me as well. Bottom line, Flava Flav is correct, "you can't trust it" :D
 
GreshamH said:
cwolfus said:
Great meeting!

One thing Rich didn't mention is that in addition to the fish that die at the LFS or our tanks MANY MANY more die at each stage in the chain of custody. Its been a very long time since I visited a wholesaler/transhipper (10+ years) but it seemed like 20% of the fish they received were DOA. Then more died in their tanks. Then they were packed and shipped to LFSs (where more died). Does anyone know what those numbers are like these days? How many fish die for every one that we buy?
Click to expand...

Damn do you work for the government? They are the only ones that spout such bogus numbers :lol:

Transhippers do not tank fish so they by definition have 0% DOA/DAA. A wholesaler would go out of business with a 20% constant DOA, sorry but that is just totally bogus info your passing along and at the expense of what truly happens. When I was in wholesale we never got above a 3% DOA/DAA COMBINED. The rare time we did was due to poor handling along the CoC by entities we int he trade have no control over, the airlines and the governing agencies.

How many die depends on the fish and how they are $$ percieved. Damsels are the tightest pack so they tend to far worse then let's say Angels that area a higher dollar fish thus resulting in a better packing job. They also are larger fish so their % of the freight is much higher.
Click to expand...

I don't work for the gov't... yet! :)

I see your point Gresham, and I stand corrected. It is irresponsible of me to be making general statements of my vague observations from a decade ago without reproducible facts; especially in a situation as charged as this one. Clearly there are many good people, with skills, that do a great job, use best practices, and have the animal's interest in their practices. Those people's livelihood, and this hobby, are at risk from extremists who may succeed at shutting down this hobby and I have no business providing fodder by making baseless accusations.

Even in the late 90's, when I visited Quality Marine and another wholesaler who's name I cannot remember, I could instantly see they knew what they were doing; and had few losses as a result. The same holds true with the Boberts not so long ago, and I have no doubt that you only worked in high quality operations like these.

I also visited a specific transhipper with a small operation near LAX and personally saw fish going into tanks. Why was I visiting? Because they regularly sold animals that came in but could not be forwarded to the intended end point. This particular operation was nothing like a Quality Marine or Asap, but they did have fish and other animals in their tanks for sale to those with a resale license. There was a lot of death there, but I cannot say for certain how much. I should not have made that statement and retract it as baseless.

However, that "transhipper" did have losses and was tanking animals. Maybe that made them not a transhipper, by definition, but that was what they claimed to be.

I'm just glad to know what I saw was the exception. BAR needs to hear more reputable viewpoints. Knowledge is power and we all need a lot more!
 
Don't trust Rich. Seriously :p He had a good message and that was for us to not take everything he says as gospel, and that we should research info yourself.

I believe he had a slide that said to google ornamental fish "chain of custody" (the quotes are important) for some nigh-time reading.

Click her for google search results
 
Lyn said:
To be honest, I was a bit depressed after the presentation. It made me very sad to hear that so many animals were killed. I will need to rethink my participation in this hobby, especially when it comes to non-propagatable species. I wonder if I am being selfish in my desire to obtain and keep these wild caught animals for my own desire and pleasure? No matter how much I love and admire these beautiful creatures, perhaps it is best that I not participate in the chain of destruction. I was never a huge purchaser of livestock, but I think that after today, I'll stick to DBTC and captive bred animals.
Click to expand...

I completely understand your feelings. When I started looking into this stuff I almost left the hobby. I was also looking at justifications for keeping these animals based on the huge amount of resources needed to keep even a small tank, and although people like to claim a host of justifications there really is only one that makes any sense - I want it. I am absolutely fine with that justification, but I don't like the justifications that people use to try to make themselves feel better. :D I ended up staying in the hobby because I love it, and if people are ok with riding ATV's through the wilderness because they like that, I am ok with keeping a reef tank because I like it. And, yes, it is selfish, but so is most of what we do for pleasure in the US. Something that helped me feel better was figuring out ways to be helpful to the planet that aren't reef related. Do what you can. :D

There are a lot of numbers being thrown around in this thread, but remember what I said about not trusting anyone. :D When I look for actual numbers, there is always someone involved that is 'in the know' that says the numbers aren't right. That was one of the most frustrating things for me - no agreement on the numbers.

Sticking to captive livestock and DBTC are great ideas!
 
Thales, I'd also like to ask you about another comment you made at the beginning of the presentation. You said, " The Mormons are buying Tonga". I was a bit perplexed by your statement and wondered a) why you said that, b) what purpose did it serve, and c) where you got your information.

I spoke to a Tongan friend of mine to ask her if this was true, and she said it was not and was upset by it. She wanted to know where you got your information. I think we need to be careful when making blanket statements about any one culture or group of people, religious or otherwise, because it comes off sounding biased; which I believe you are not. :)
 
I want to thank all of the people who who volunteered to help cleanup on Saturday. It was all good. The food, the talk and the company. Wonderful afternoon.
 
Lyn, according to Wikipedia (I know often not a valid source ;)).

By their own church statistics, Mormons claim 48 percent of the population to substantiate their claim that Tonga is the most Mormon nation in the world,
Click to expand...

It might not be that Mormons are buying up Tonga, could be that they're converting Tongans to Mormonism.
 
Every Tongan I know is Mormon Lyn. When asked why, they all have answered, they offered the best spread (food). Granted I only know like 30 or so Mormon's--- er Tongans :) Well I actually know 43 Mormons, 30 are Tongan and the other 13 is a family I know in Socal (11 kids and counting)
 
Lyn said:
Thales, I'd also like to ask you about another comment you made at the beginning of the presentation. You said, " The Mormons are buying Tonga". I was a bit perplexed by your statement and wondered a) why you said that, b) what purpose did it serve, and c) where you got your information.

I spoke to a Tongan friend of mine to ask her if this was true, and she said it was not and was upset by it. She wanted to know where you got your information. I think we need to be careful when making blanket statements about any one culture or group of people, religious or otherwise, because it comes off sounding biased; which I believe you are not. :)
Click to expand...

'Buying Tonga' was a joke, but one of the major influxes of money into Tonga is form Mormons (most of the money going into Tonga is from Tongans living abroad, the second most is from Mormons). The mormons are pouring money into Tonga, building schools and temples in cities and villages. Because the Mormon schools have so much money, they are better than most other local schools and Tongans are converting to Mormonism in order to take advantage of the education. The mormons have supplied Tongans with plane tickets to the US to encourage conversion and to help them emigrate. All of this is well documented.
http://books.google.com/books?id=EABPLrDovFAC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=Tonga+mormons+money&source=bl&ots=9cV5EQcFQ3&sig=LQYi9anMRA0uJ8i9fOlvIAwImGo&hl=en&ei=eoMmS6aDIY_SsQOW09zgDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Tonga%20mormons%20money&f=false
'It is the Mormons' stated intention to transform Tonga into the first Mormon state'
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top