Colorado Sunburst Group

Discussion in 'Propagation' started by kinetic, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. kinetic

    kinetic Webmaster

    Colorado Sunburst Group
    What
    : a group of BAR members who pitch in equally to purchase a true lineage CSB anemone, with the intention of spreading the splits first to those who initially pitched in, and then throughout the club.
    Why: The CSB anemone price has been driven up really high (as of this post, they're selling for $1200). They are really beautiful, but not affordable / practical at that price for many in this club. We will use this to get this beautiful anemone eventually throughout our club.
    Who: We will start off with 6 dedicated participants, who will contribute a certain amount to begin (TBD)
    How: One proposed way: we will purchase the initial true lineage CSB, house it in a good tank (most likely @Bruce Spiegelman's nem tank), and distribute the splits to each participant (we can use a random number generator to decide who goes first, and skip that person if she's not ready at that time etc.). Once that's done, we will either DBTC or try to recoup our cost ($200/each) by spreading the splits at lower prices throughout. How exactly to do that, we will have to talk about it. Especially since Bruce will most likely be doing all of the work keeping the nem alive etc.

    Todo:
    1. Discuss the details of how to approach this project and iterate to make it fair
    2. Determine who wants to participate. I'm guessing with 6 people, we'll contribute about $200 each to purchase the CSB. This is still to be discussed.
    3. Talk about how to help and contribute to Bruce's nem tank, so it's fair to him for housing it.
    4. This is NOT for sure, it is NOT sponsored, and it's up to us to work it out and organize. I'm happy to take the lead.
    5. Everyone must accept the risk of the CSB not making it in the initial tank due to any circumstance
    6. Iterate more on the format of it all
    This thread is to discuss the details, though I don't think we're ready just yet to get deposits and actual people in this first go. If we have more than 6, like 12, maybe we can find two CSB's.

    Please leave your suggestions and thoughts below!
     
  2. iCon

    iCon Supporting Member

    I’d vote for the vetting of recipients.
     
  3. kinetic

    kinetic Webmaster

    Do you mean, making sure they are supporting members, will follow the ideals of spreading the csb (rather than simply trying to make a ton of money off of each other?)? Or something else in mind?
     
  4. JVU

    JVU Supporting Member

    Seems pretty likely to engender hard feelings at some point. Like loaning money to a cousin lol. For example, if it doesn’t split in a timely fashion, or one of the clones dies, or deciding the order of disbursement if everyone paid the same, or if someone sells one years later, etc. Much more straightforward to have 1 person good with anemones buy it and sell babies for $200 (or whatever the price) each, this would accomplish the same thing without getting anyone upset. If no one is willing to take the risk of a bad outcome with their own upfront money then they shouldn’t be willing to take the risk with other members’ money IMO. Even if all goes well, it is likely to be years before the final couple contributors get one, and who knows by then the pricing may have become much more reasonable and $200 might the normal price.
     
  5. Flagg37

    Flagg37 Colorado member

    I think if the “sponsors” view this whole endeavor as more of a lottery instead of a purchase then it can solve the hard feelings aspect. If I have the mind set that I’ll throw my $200 in but know that I may not see anything from it then if I do get one then then great but if I don’t then there was no expectation of return.

    I think it would be fair to have it work similarly to the dbtc rules too so that if you receive a split and yours splits then that one would go into the lottery as well until all sponsors receive one.

    If we do choose to view it more as s lottery I don’t see a problem with increasing the participants to say 12 to bring down the buy in cost to about $100.

    @Bruce Spiegelman has been nominated as the keeper of the first one. Assuming he accepts is the specimen going to be a dedicated species tank where it’s the only thing in it or is it just going in with everything else he’s got? I think either way can work, I’m just curious.
     
  6. I have a dedicated nem tank (non-wild.)
     
  7. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    No way in hell I would get into something with a price tag like that, there are too many variables for me to be comfortable with.

    That said old member Patrick had at one time a dedicated nem tank with the various "designer anemones" like the CSB, lemon drop, etc and he actually had something happen that wiped out his collection. He hypothesized there was infighting on a chemical level which occurred which did them in, even though they were all the same species (supposedly). So there's something to keep an eye on.
     
    iCon likes this.
  8. The anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that chemical infighting usually only occurs between wild and tank-raised nems, but it's a slight possibility. There can always be something....
     
  9. iCon

    iCon Supporting Member

    Experienced the same thing. He had the original CSB, tank propagated and all. FWIW, my tank had only “tank raised” nems and experienced a similar wipeout. Not sure you want to roll the dice with an expensive specimen and other people’s money. If there’s a reefer that wants to split 2 ways and keep it simple, I’m up for it. Just need a nem 4”+ with proper documentation ;)
     
  10. Ibn

    Ibn Supporting Member

    Yes, it does happen with only designer nems and no wilds in the system. A couple of the farmers in SoCal also experienced complete wipeouts from their own broodstock in the last few years, none of which were wilds.
     
  11. That would suck. I wonder with the proliferation of Nem Harem tanks we now see why we haven't heard of any wipe-out issue with them.
     
  12. Flagg37

    Flagg37 Colorado member

    I’ve never heard of this. What happens? Do they just wake up one morning and find a tank of nem soup?
     
  13. kinetic

    kinetic Webmaster

    I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate, but can these crashes be related to something other than a sudden bout of chemical warfare? People's tanks crash for a lot of different reasons.

    Maybe in a couple years some kind of science or research on this will come out about what goes on in these sudden nem tank deaths.
     
  14. kinetic

    kinetic Webmaster

    On another note, I also know many long time anemone keepers / shops who have never seen this happen. It's just that we hear and remember the bad ones. I don't think it's at all a for sure thing that a tank will just nuke itself.
     
  15. This is what I actually believe is the case most of the time. Tank SDS can come from a whole lot of factors and I'm betting that many of the times it's attributed to "it's the Nems fault" is simply because many folks find it easier to blame that than bad husbandry or their mistake. Every report of this (and there aren't that many) are anecdotal although some to come from experienced reefers. I also have never heard of it in a "Nem heavy" fully functioning reef tank -- just in propagation tanks.
     
  16. iCon

    iCon Supporting Member

    I have pictures somewhere. Mine became rather gnarly looking, shriveled up, and general discoloration.
     
  17. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    Oh absolutely it could be, I mean I even mentioned in my post that was what he hypothesized. Could have been something simple like a zinc coated screw dropping into the sump and then slowly poisoning the tank for all we know.

    Although I will say from experience that those BTAs are pretty damn bullet proof as far as aquarium critters go, I would definitely say they're in the "soft coral" range of being resilient from tank issues, at least once they're established. So why are some of these anemones more prone than others at splitting? why are some more hardy than others, if it's just a color thing it really doesn't make sense unless there's some underlying issues (stress, or whatever) that are the causes of those color morphs that you see.

    That said, my apprehension is more the risk vs reward of this. If you had a $100 Dolphin Pet Village GBTA then whatever, if I toss in $20 for a group of 5 and have to wait 2 years before I get one it's not a huge risk on my side, but if I had to throw in $200 and I have to take someone else's care levels as being what's responsible for it living... then it's a bit more risky regardless of the reward, mostly because $200 is more than I would spend on an anemone in the first place.
     
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  18. iCon

    iCon Supporting Member

    Absolutely, but I think the point is that it's a gamble, with more at stake when using other peoples' money. @Bruce Spiegelman, agree with your post too, but most can't stomach another wipeout to find out if it was chemical warfare or not. Keeping the strain by itself eliminates one of many possibilities. Also, I don't know if it's an allergic reaction or what, but some BTA strains have more potent stings than others... Unfortunately, just a lame, unscientific, and anecdotal comment based on experience.

    That said, my current nem tank has multiple strains in it... Some never learn, eh?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  19. kinetic

    kinetic Webmaster

    Yup, I hear ya. I think it's up to the individual on whether it's worth it. $20 vs. $200 vs. $2,000 is really different to everyone for any reason.

    One "strain" vs. multiple strains in a tank is also an assumption that it's not individual anemones fighting each other, but each strain has immunity to it's own chemicals. We have no idea.

    The most careful approach? One tank, one anemone, and if it splits take it out. But I don't know, to me that's a bit overkill without enough to back it up.
     
  20. iCon

    iCon Supporting Member

    I forget who it was back in my nem propagating days, but they suggested running carbon as well. Can't say I've tried that. Current tank does not run carbon.
     

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