Fritz salt

Discussion in 'Reef Chemistry' started by Edgar Sandoval, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. RandyC

    RandyC Supporting Member

    I cleaned my brute with vinegar to get rid of existing precipitate and then power washed the brute. Filled with 15 gallons of fresh ro/di that measured at 0 TDS. Added IORC salt to water (was at 71F at time of mixing) with two power heads running and no heater.

    Measured 2 hours later
    Temp: 71F
    1.025 (Milwaukee)
    Alk: 9.4 dKh (Hanna)
    Ca: 470 (Salifert)
    Mg: 1350 (Salifert)

    These numbers are a little weird for IORC, but that's always been a problem with mixing partial bags. So we'll just roll with these numbers.

    I then placed heater in and turned on after testing the initial water params. The two power heads continued to run the entire time.

    24 hour result
    Temp: 78.6F
    1.025 (Milwaukee)
    Alk: 9.4 dKh (Hanna)
    Ca: 450 (Salifert)
    Mg: 1350 (Salifert)

    So far, params haven't drifted at all (Ca is well within margin of error). Will update in a few days.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
  2. Flagg37

    Flagg37 Officer at large

    Looks to be pretty stable so far just lower than expected alk from the get go. They mix the salt in huge batches but what has been postulated is that the IO and RC don't get mixed enough then when they fill the bags or buckets there will be variations from bag to bag. What you get in your bag should be pretty much the same throughout it, so mixing a partial bag should have next to no difference.

    Imagine if you had a 10 gallon mixing container and took 9 gallons of white salt and one gallon of red salt and started mixing them together. Say you mixed them for ten minutes by hand and then scooped it all out into 1000 equal parts. There will be portions that have more red and some that have more white but the portions themselves are small enough that within that portion there is almost no variation.

    The Fritz salt says that they mix their salt much better. So in the example it would be like mixing it for 24hrs with a machine instead of the 10 mins by hand (not real values just an analogy). There still may be some variation but it's sure to be less. It's hard to know for sure since you can't just look at it since it's all just white powder. This is why they take tests of each large batch to make sure it's as homogeneous as possible.
  3. Ibn

    Ibn Supporting Member

    Tested IO after ~25 hours after initial. Alk dropped slight from 12 to 11.68.
  4. RandyC

    RandyC Supporting Member

    96 hour result (pumps and heater have been running the whole duration.
    Temp: 78.3F
    1.025 (Milwaukee)
    Alk: 9.0 dKh (Hanna)
    Ca: 460 (Salifert)
    Mg: 1350 (Salifert)

    Looks like params are holding fairly well. Hanna alk checker has an error resolution of ±0.3 dKH ±5% of reading. By day 5 on my last batch I was at 6.4dKh (though I don't know the starting point, I can't imagine it started that low right after mixing).

    Here is what is different from the last batch that was made (last batch was made from same bag of salt).

    - I did not add RO/DI to previous saltwater batch (i.e., I started from clean RO/DI water)
    - My brute was cleaned with vinegar and power washed and had no precipitate in the container.

    So, who wants to start with a theory?
  5. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    I rather like the grey one because I can see when precipitation gets out of control :D
  6. Edgar Sandoval

    Edgar Sandoval Supporting Member

    I think we need to clean the Brute container more often lol

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  7. Flagg37

    Flagg37 Officer at large

    Interesting. So perhaps it's not the salt but something left behind in the reservoir that is reacting with the alkalinity causing it to drop. I don't know what that would be but it seems plausible. We need to get BRS Investigates on this.

    @Ibn did you mix your batch in a clean container?
  8. JVU

    JVU Supporting Member

    It seems reasonable that the pre-existing precipitate on the container wall/bottom can promote precipitation of the new salt solution through nucleation.

    That seems more likely than the tiny amount of residual dissolved salt left over when refilling with RODI causing an issue. Unless it too eventually came out of solution while waiting for the next batch, then it could promote precipitation through nucleation too.

    I'm sure a saltwater chemist could give a more definitive answer, but sounds like Edgar is right about cleaning our NSW containers more often, especially getting that old precipitate off.

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  9. RandyC

    RandyC Supporting Member

    That would have been my guess. I'll have to go review the chemistry books, but I'm guessing the existing precipitate acts as a catalyst for more alk to drop out of solution.

    I'm going clean the bucket the next couple of times and make sure that it's repeatable. And if it is, maybe I'll confirm a dirty bucket causes alk to drop.
  10. Ibn

    Ibn Supporting Member

    There was brown residue in the bucket, so I used a microfiber cloth and cleaned it down. Pretty easy to do with a microfiber cloth and then rinsed it out. I didn't do any vinegar at all. So I would say it looked clean (as in the picture above).
  11. Coral reefer

    Coral reefer President

    Sounds like I need to get an easier way to clean my barrel. I do it once a year or so...amazing how much crap comes out. I do go thru a huge amount of water tho. Like 40ish buckets a year of 225 gal aquavitro salinity. Haven't measured the alk of my water recently, was always around 9. I usually don't store water more than a few days at a time though either.
  12. scuzy

    scuzy Supporting Member

    I don't have crud with Fritz since I started with a clean bucket.

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  13. RandyC

    RandyC Supporting Member

    Anyone still have low alk saltwater mixed? If you do, can you measure pH and report back? I should have done that before making a new batch.
  14. Gablami

    Gablami Supporting Member

    I do. I can check later.

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  15. Edgar Sandoval

    Edgar Sandoval Supporting Member

    Don't know if I want to continue using fritz. I never had this issue with Salinity

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  16. yellojello

    yellojello Supporting Member

    BRS did get this question, hopefully they'll make a video soon. However, Fritz isn't a brand they sell, so that probably won't be in the tests:

    BRS Salt storage thread:

    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  17. Flagg37

    Flagg37 Officer at large

    I didn't watch the video but are they testing salt that has been mixed with water or just if the salt mix itself expires?
  18. Edgar Sandoval

    Edgar Sandoval Supporting Member

    So do all salts drop alk like fritz when kept in a container?

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  19. Gablami

    Gablami Supporting Member

    It definitely hasn't been proven and so far it's just my one batch of mix. I wouldn't stop using fritz because of this. Maybe it's my mixing container. For me it doesn't matter as much since I'm only using a gallon a day. But if you're mixing large amounts, storing, and then changing large amounts it's something to explore further.

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  20. Coral reefer

    Coral reefer President

    Seems like you just gotta keep your container clean and or use you water prettY quickly to avoid any issues

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