Halp! Apex EB8 Outlet Sticking ON

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Spoon, May 26, 2014.

  1. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Hi!

    I have my ATO (Tom Aqualifter) plugged into my EB8 (#2) and for some reason my programming will not shut this outlet off once it's on. :/

    Interestingly, while it's "stuck" on, I will physically unplug the Aqualifter. Then, when I plug the Aqualifter, the #2 is then off.

    I also posted this on Neptune forums and gotten some response. I figure it had something to do with resistive load from the Aqualifter not being enough to trigger the outlet.

    Anyone have this experience? My program below...



    Fallback OFF

    Set OFF

    If Time 06:15 to 06:24 Then ON

    If Time 16:15 to 16:24 Then ON

    If Time 21:00 to 21:09 Then ON

    If Sw6 CLOSED Then OFF

    If Outlet ATO_MAX = ON Then OFF

    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
     
  2. tr1gger

    tr1gger Keyboard Cowboy

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    I am not familiar much with apex but I know that the toms aqualifter uses very low voltage? amperage? I cant remember which but when I had mine on my RKL it would stick on because different slots on the power bar have different voltage/wattage/amperage something like that. May be a cause.

    Might help. I am by no means an electrical person or an apex person ;)
     
  3. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Amperage. Thanks Dan. Maybe I should plug it into one of the relay outlets (#4 or #8), then it wouldn't matter.
     
  4. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Halp!!!

    I transferred the load to outlet #4 (relayed) and even worse problem! Program is telling outlet to turn OFF, but it remains ON!! Pic below + program!

    [​IMG]


    Fallback OFF

    Set OFF

    If Time 06:15 to 06:29 Then ON

    If Time 16:30 to 16:49 Then ON

    If Time 22:15 to 22:24 Then ON

    If Sw6 CLOSED Then OFF

    If Outlet ATO_MAX = ON Then OFF

    Defer 005:00 Then OFF
     
  5. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

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    Out of curiosity does it turn off when the time constraints are met? Seems to me there's a conflict in your programming, time says turn on, switch says turn off, not knowing the logic of the system (i.e. what takes ultimate priority) can't say.

    Try removing that DEFER statement, see if that changes things up.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  6. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    I got it to work, thanks man. I removed the defer statement. Afterward I re-entered the defer statement and still it works as it's supposed to. Not sure what the deal was..

    I tested again this morning, during time constraints, manually turning the switch on/off and it works great.

    I'm at work now, so it's not set to come on again until I'm home. We'll see what's up..I need to gain confidence in this system. :)
     
  7. aqua-nut

    aqua-nut Supporting Member

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    As you discovered, only outlets 4 and 8 handle low load devices correctly.

    I don't use the defer command, mostly because I really don't understand it! :(

    What are you trying to accomplish with it?

    It should apply to either or all of the

    SET OFF
    If Sw6 CLOSED Then OFF
    If Outlet ATO_MAX = ON Then OFF

    lines and I don't know which one it will choose. Perhaps all? Like I said, I really don't understand DEFER!

    Very best place to ask these questions is the Apex forum. Russ and Al are great with all the programming!

    Nevermind! I see you are posting on Apex forum NOW! :)
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  8. Kensington Reefer

    Kensington Reefer Supporting Member

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    Who is "Halp"
    :)
     
  9. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    @aqua-nut, the defer command is to allow a set amount of time before the outlet changes it's state. In my case it's just a 5 second delay to make sure the "LATCH" command sticks.

    I'll post my whole ATO program below.


    In another case, let's say you have a float to switch your ATO to ON. You can set a defer time of 1 minute, so that way the float must reach that state, and stay there for 1 minute before the outlet switches ON. This will prevent your float bouncing around in the sump, cycling your ATO pump on/off repeatedly unnecessarily.

    @Kensington Reefer, :p
     
  10. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Here's my final ATO programming with the single switch:


    "Outlet ATO_YES"
    Fallback OFF

    Set OFF

    If Time 06:15 to 06:24 Then ON

    If Time 16:30 to 16:44 Then ON

    If Time 21:00 to 21:09 Then ON

    If Sw6 CLOSED Then OFF

    If Outlet ATO_MAX = ON Then OFF

    Defer 000:05 Then OFF



    "Virtual Outlet ATO_MAX"
    If Outlet ATO_YES = ON Then ON

    If Outlet ATO_YES = OFF Then OFF

    If Outlet ATO_LATCH = ON Then OFF

    Defer 015:30 Then ON

    Defer 000:05 Then OFF



    "Virtual Outlet ATO_LATCH"
    If Outlet ATO_MAX = ON Then ON
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  11. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

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    The DEFER statement is basically a type of hysteresis, and I could be reading it wrong but the way it was written in the above code is that is that it will only turn off the outlet after the switch has been closed for 5 minutes. Which is really odd, but you're basically telling it "don't turn the outlet off unless it's in the switch is in the closed position for at least 5 minutes."

    Defer means to "put off", so you're putting off switching the outlet off until your switch has been closed for 5 minutes.
    You might want to reduce the defer time to maybe 1 minute, flip the OFF to ON, this is useful in that it prevents constant on/off cycles, or remove DEFER all together. As DEFER overrides other things, so your "if closed then off" doesn't really turn off because the DEFER says "don't turn off for 5 minutes", I see you changed it to 5 seconds though.
     
  12. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Oops that was a typo. :)

    It's 5 seconds. 000:05, I think it was an update that allowed increments in seconds. Either that, or the Defer command recognizes second increments by default? I dunno..

    But yeah I tested this morning and it's 5 seconds.
     
  13. aqua-nut

    aqua-nut Supporting Member

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    OK you really lost me there! Perhaps someone gave me DECAF! :)

    ATO_YES refers to ATO_MAX and ATO_MAX refers to ATO_YES. Seems circular?

    I don't see what LATCH does. It seems to turn off MAX only if MAX is ON.

    To me, it seems overly complicated. Float switch should be in an area where there isn't much turbulence so all the DEFER statements seem unnecessary.

    What's wrong with just:

    "Outlet ATO_YES"
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Time 06:15 to 06:24 Then ON
    If Time 16:30 to 16:39 Then ON
    If Time 21:00 to 21:09 Then ON
    If Sw6 CLOSED Then OFF

    I assume Sw6 senses HIGH water/sump level restored.
    Flip float and change Sw6 to:
    If Sw6 OPEN then OFF
    because failure mode is almost always OPEN.
     
  14. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    I will flip the float when I get home. :)

    @aqua-nut, the ATO_MAX has a Defer of 15:30, so it won't activate until after that time has lapsed.

    The job of ATO_MAX is to turn ON when the pump ran longer than usual (pump failing, empty RO reservoir, etc), ATO_LATCH will also turn ON, and consequently they will both ensure that ATO_YES is turned OFF.
     
  15. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Oh and not only that, the LATCH once turned ON, will stay ON and must manually be set to OFF, then AUTO by me physically. This ensures that I have the chance to investigate what happened, why the pump ran longer than it was supposed to, etc. And if there happens to be a fault condition, the ATO won't have the ability to turn itself on again until I've cleared it.

    How would I possibly know this is all happening? It's set to notify me via text and email, of course. ;)
     
  16. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

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    Funny how things that are supposed to simplify end up adding more confusion....

    At least with raw internal C code, you know exactly what it is doing.
     
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  17. georgec

    georgec Guest

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    If you're like me and run two dosing pumps plus an aqualifter for ATO, you may not have the option of using outlets 4 and 8. What I found on the Neptune forums and has worked for me is to plug in a single outlet surge protector to make sure it doesn't get stuck on.
     
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  18. Spoon

    Spoon Guest

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    Agreed @georgec! I've been reading a lot that on the non-relayed outlets the trick is to increase the resistive load somehow, just as you mention. :)
     
  19. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

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    There might be more to it than that.
    TRIACs can turn back on with high voltage spikes on the mains.
    And turning off an inductive load (motor) can lead to that exact type of spike.
    A surge protector will protect from that spike.
    Hard to say for sure. Could be a bit of both.
     

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