Ich: Finding My Truth (amidst the gazillion philosophies, schools of thought and approaches)

[Thales]

And with my vitamin c comment , I've been using it with the same theory as we do in our house. I take vitamin c to boost my immune system. It doesnt stop me from catching everything but it certainly helps. In no way did I mean to say vitamin c stops ich. But along the lines as a few others , the healthier i can keep my fish the better chance they can fight off ich

How do you know the Vitamin C helps you from catching anything? This is the kind of thought I am very interested in....lots of people think things like that, but there often isn't much evidence that the thing people think happens actually happens. Many products are sold, and there are a million in the reefing world that claim to make your fish healthier. Many of these products are sold by getting people to think that it helps keep fish healthier and that 'it can't hurt'. The main point here is that there are lots of people that don't use Vitamin C, or other additives, that have plenty healthy fish, which makes the question - why spend the money on a product that might work, but people who don't use it have the same results as the people that do?

Like I said, this is a real interest for me and I realize that it may not be for others so tell me to shut up if I am annoying and I will.

 

[Thales]

Rich (Thales),

I got a kick out of the video you posted, the cartoon too. AND...the article you wrote totally touches upon where I am. That's why the title of this post relates to finding my truth. At the end of the day we each have to do what works for us to keep the animals in our system happy and healthy - or as happy/healthy as can be.

Whoo hoo! Thanks! There are several other parts to the series if you are interested - http://packedhead.net/2010/skeptical-reefkeeping-part-1-re-you-sure-that-that-thing-is-true-or-did-someone-just-tell-it-to-you/

It seems a lot of the information floating around is anecdotal and not tested by way of the scientific method.

Yes. Marine ich is a very difficult to pin down and test, and for some reason there is very little money for actual research.

I have been pondering Leebca's posts a lot. He has a lot of strong opinions backed up by years of experience. I was about to go out and get everything for hypo-salinity treatment in place. Then I started to wonder if I am dealing with MI or MV - for which hypo will not work. But from what I've read, if it is MV, my fish should be dead by now.

IME velvet is not nearly as common as MI, so that seems like the best bet. There are several treatments that have been shown to work - hypo, copper (hard to do well or correctly), the transfer method, and chloriquine. There is also a variation of the transfer method that I have used at work which is a big 25 micron pleated cartridge with a big pump moving a lot of water through it. As the pleated cartridge clogs it filters finer particles and since ich is IIRC between 20 and 30 microns the pleated filter should catch them. I have done this a couple times at work and it may have done the trick - of course, it could have been other things too and the method has not been tested. I only used it because the fish were on display at work and were not catchable.

Some people just keep doing garlic, Vit C, UV, cleaners...all things that you can see on the internet reviews and opinions that are 180 degrees different. Some people swear by em. Others (most notably Leebca), claim they don't work.

I am with Leebca on that. Terry B also agrees as does Christine Williams....though last time I checked there was some evidence that seemed to show that garlic might be doing something, but not enough to get me to use it.

So many people have said, MI or MV may be in their tanks but they accept that and just do the best they can to keep their fish as happy, healthy as possible (irregardless). OK. Here's where I get tripped up...is that irresponsible or is that just some one taking their own approach to reef keeping?

That is the million dollar question, and a hard one to answer. I can only tell you what I do...I don't do anything but increase feeding and maybe a waterchange. If in a week or two the signs of infection go away, great. If they don't and the spots come back and get worse, I would try to catch the fish and treat it. Of course, catching the fish can be more stressful than not, so its hard to decide if the treatment is worse than the cure. In that case, I might go with the modified transfer method I described above.

Sifting through the material on the shelves and on the world wide web only adds stress to a stressful situation.

It does. That is why I try to base my positions on real evidence and not anecdote. Noga and Terry B have been my standards.

UPDATE to my situation: I lost 3 new fish to whatever over the past two weeks (note: I added too many fish at once - lesson learned) - none of them ever had spots on them. My other fish that have the dusting of spots visible mainly in the purple glow of my LEDs in the evening hours are still eating and swimming and being marginally social. Both are newer additions.

No fish losses to the "spots" - be they MV or MI.

I will say, I think I threw my tank in to re-cycle mode here recently by doing two things: adding 3 chunks of live rock - sorta medium sized pieces - the rock had previously been cured but had dried out completely and been in storage for a while. The other thing was just adding too many fish at one time. I think I kicked my bacteria population in to overdrive and they couldn't keep up with all the de-nitrification activities they needed to do.

Nonetheless, for now, I would say if I have MI/MV, it is not killing anyone - I know, I know...YET. Everyone is quick to say it is just a matter of time. But days have gone by...since I first observed this. And I'm pretty sure I've had MI and/or MV in my tank in the past with no resulting deaths.

Thanks to all for posts and interesting tidbits of information. I am mucho grateful.

Dennis

Having ich in your system does not mean that your fish are doomed. I would feed the crap out of them and see what develops - or doesn't!

 

[denzil]

Great discussion. I too am of the opinion of only believing stuff written in white papers and always remaining objective regarding anecdotes or partially controlled experiments. I love the scientific method.

 

[ReefLove]

There is just too many things, I am stressed reading stuff even if I don't have a tank. God help me !!

 

[Kensington Reefer]

Definitely good stuff Rich.

 

[tankguy]

And with my vitamin c comment , I've been using it with the same theory as we do in our house. I take vitamin c to boost my immune system. It doesnt stop me from catching everything but it certainly helps. In no way did I mean to say vitamin c stops ich. But along the lines as a few others , the healthier i can keep my fish the better chance they can fight off ich

How do you know the Vitamin C helps you from catching anything? This is the kind of thought I am very interested in....lots of people think things like that, but there often isn't much evidence that the thing people think happens actually happens. Many products are sold, and there are a million in the reefing world that claim to make your fish healthier. Many of these products are sold by getting people to think that it helps keep fish healthier and that 'it can't hurt'. The main point here is that there are lots of people that don't use Vitamin C, or other additives, that have plenty healthy fish, which makes the question - why spend the money on a product that might work, but people who don't use it have the same results as the people that do?

Like I said, this is a real interest for me and I realize that it may not be for others so tell me to shut up if I am annoying and I will.

Its all good Rich , I am by no means an expert. The vitamin c things comes from growing up. When I was a kid thats all I heard. Takes your Vitamins to help prevent you from getting sick. So I applied that to my tank. For me it seems to be working. What works for my tank may not work for some one elses. I have tried alot of ich meds and have been told this one really works or that one really works. For me none of them worked. Vit C and good food seemed the best way for me to go. Ive had pretty good success or maybe Ive just been lucky. Either way if its working for me and maybe it will work for someone else. If im wrong then I will always take it as I learned something new. In this hobby we never stop learning

 

[Thales]

And with my vitamin c comment , I've been using it with the same theory as we do in our house. I take vitamin c to boost my immune system. It doesnt stop me from catching everything but it certainly helps. In no way did I mean to say vitamin c stops ich. But along the lines as a few others , the healthier i can keep my fish the better chance they can fight off ich

How do you know the Vitamin C helps you from catching anything? This is the kind of thought I am very interested in....lots of people think things like that, but there often isn't much evidence that the thing people think happens actually happens. Many products are sold, and there are a million in the reefing world that claim to make your fish healthier. Many of these products are sold by getting people to think that it helps keep fish healthier and that 'it can't hurt'. The main point here is that there are lots of people that don't use Vitamin C, or other additives, that have plenty healthy fish, which makes the question - why spend the money on a product that might work, but people who don't use it have the same results as the people that do?

Like I said, this is a real interest for me and I realize that it may not be for others so tell me to shut up if I am annoying and I will.

Its all good Rich , I am by no means an expert. The vitamin c things comes from growing up. When I was a kid thats all I heard. Takes your Vitamins to help prevent you from getting sick. So I applied that to my tank. For me it seems to be working. What works for my tank may not work for some one elses. I have tried alot of ich meds and have been told this one really works or that one really works. For me none of them worked. Vit C and good food seemed the best way for me to go. Ive had pretty good success or maybe Ive just been lucky. Either way if its working for me and maybe it will work for someone else. If im wrong then I will always take it as I learned something new. In this hobby we never stop learning

Right on! I think for me the question is 'how do you know it is working'?

 

[tankguy]

Quite honestly I dont. But no ich and the fish looking healthy leads me to believe it is. Hell outside of a cough that I have I feel pretty good. Still taking my vitamins

 

[Thales]

How do you reconcile the people that don't add that product to their tanks and also don't have ich? I would say the same about human Vit C, but think that is a distraction from the reefing discussion.
I used all kinds of products over the years and thought they were working, but when I would run out and not replace the product, I continued to have the same results which led me to the conclusion that is couldn't be the products that were giving me those results and now I can spend that money on other things.

 

[robert4025]

I like what Rich says. Keeping the fish well fed, keep their environment stable, and their immune system will be more likely able to fight off almost anything. This is the practice we stood by for years in the shop and its working well for us for almost five years now...even on a commercial scale. Our survival rate on new fish is about 95% in the shop.

 

[Kensington Reefer]

Been telling people what Robert just said for years!
A hungry fish is an angry fish! How do you feel if you haven't ad enough to eat?!

 

[goldielocke76]

Been telling people what Robert just said for years!
A hungry fish is an angry fish! How do you feel if you haven't ad enough to eat?!

LoL angry with a massive migraine xD

That's why I have an autofeeder and the huge selection of frozen food for my fish in the tank. Not only do they have different frozen, but different pellets as well and any time I see a new frozen food, I'll pick it up to see how they like it.

 

[rygh]

How do you reconcile the people that don't add that product to their tanks and also don't have ich?.....

Easy : All people, tanks, feeding habits, and fish are different.

Besides, that is just anecdotal evidence.
Couldn't resist

 

[rygh]

I do want to try to explain why I have an issue with the some of studies and articles out there.

A lot of the experiments/articles are trying to prove/disprove a 100% link between Vitamin C and curing ich.
The thought being it should always work or always fail.
We are beyond that in my mind. It is long since proven that it is not a miracle cure.
(Both people and fish)

But the problem is, that "proven no 100% link" is then used to say it is useless in all cases.
Which is wrong.

Instead, the discussion should be "Can it work under certain circumstances?"
If so, why or why not? And would it help me in my case?

Like other things, they can be good, but then get horribly over-hyped.
That crazy hype is easy to disprove, but then you lose track of something that might
actually be useful.

 

[Thales]

How do you reconcile the people that don't add that product to their tanks and also don't have ich?.....

Easy : All people, tanks, feeding habits, and fish are different.

If that is the case than there can be no useful advice about reef keeping.

Besides, that is just anecdotal evidence.
Couldn't resist

I am pretty sure that that is exactly my point.

 

[Thales]

I do want to try to explain why I have an issue with the some of studies and articles out there.

A lot of the experiments/articles are trying to prove/disprove a 100% link between Vitamin C and curing ich.

There are not a lot of them. And the point is to show any link at all.

The thought being it should always work or always fail.

No way. The point of an experiment is to generate results, not to try to generate 100% or 0% efficacy.

We are beyond that in my mind. It is long since proven that it is not a miracle cure.
(Both people and fish)

At the same time it is often promoted as a miracle cure, or worse, something that you need to continually spend money on for it to have its supposed effect.

But the problem is, that "proven no 100% link" is then used to say it is useless in all cases.
Which is wrong.

I don't think anyone says that.

Instead, the discussion should be "Can it work under certain circumstances?"
If so, why or why not? And would it help me in my case?

I think that is exactly what the discussion actually is.

Like other things, they can be good, but then get horribly over-hyped.
That crazy hype is easy to disprove, but then you lose track of something that might
actually be useful.

They hype may be easy to show, but it is far from easy to get people to take it to heart. If it is useful at all it is up to the people saying it is useful to show it is useful. If they don't, it should go into the 'we don't know' category, which makes it hard to recommend unless you are the one making money from it. It may be good to eat rocks to help digestion, but until someone can show me some evidence that there is any efficacy, I am not going to eat rocks.

 

[Crabby]

Hmm. I sense a BAR group experiment here. Now, all we need are some volunteers, some food, and a big bag of rocks....! ;-)

 

[gimmito]

Hmm. I sense a BAR group experiment here. Now, all we need are some volunteers, some food, and a big bag of rocks....! ;-)

:bigsmile:

 

[goldielocke76]

Sorry guys, I guess I'm still stuck on: "Why try to put a band aid on it, when we can stitch up the wound to stop the bleeding?" i.e. why are we trying to find a "cure-all" for ich when we should be trying to find out what we can do as hobbyists to prevent an ich outbreak all together? If I am doing something wrong in my tank, I don't care what miracle cure works, the ich is going to keep on coming back until we can pinpoint the major causes in each individual tank, fix that, then find out what we can do or give our fish to prevent ich, not cure it.

Thought one: vitamin C boosts the fishes immune system, therefore, no matter how stressed out they get (temperature swings, bullied, poor environment, etc) as long as they receive a vitamin c supplement, they will be healthy enough to fend off an ich outbreak.

Regardless if it is vitamin C, selcon, vitachem, ginger, or whatever it is, that is what I'd like to know. I don't believe that we will ever find a cure all for ich. I mean, is there a cure all for fleas? No, just preventatives.

 

[Thales]

Sorry guys, I guess I'm still stuck on: "Why try to put a band aid on it, when we can stitch up the wound to stop the bleeding?" i.e. why are we trying to find a "cure-all" for ich when we should be trying to find out what we can do as hobbyists to prevent an ich outbreak all together? If I am doing something wrong in my tank, I don't care what miracle cure works, the ich is going to keep on coming back until we can pinpoint the major causes in each individual tank, fix that, then find out what we can do or give our fish to prevent ich, not cure it.

Thought one: vitamin C boosts the fishes immune system, therefore, no matter how stressed out they get (temperature swings, bullied, poor environment, etc) as long as they receive a vitamin c supplement, they will be healthy enough to fend off an ich outbreak.

Regardless if it is vitamin C, selcon, vitachem, ginger, or whatever it is, that is what I'd like to know. I don't believe that we will ever find a cure all for ich. I mean, is there a cure all for fleas? No, just preventatives.

Part of the problem is that there are very few proven cures for marine ich, and none of them are reef safe. If there was a reef safe treatment or cure, ich would not really be much of a problem. Since actually treating it is difficult, people are focused on cure all's. So, how do you prevent ich all together in a display tank? 30-60 day QT with skin scrapes on the way in and out, and treatment of the QT system if necessary. Possibly some prophylactic treatments as well, but they worry me and sometimes can do more harm than good to a stressed fish. Time and effort is the key to preventing this parasite.

Fleas are a great comparison to marine ich. Both have industries set up to provide cures and preventative measures that have little or no shown efficacy, but people really want to feel like they are doing something so they convince themselves that these things actually work. Treatment for fleas and ich are pains in the butt, but we know they work. Preventatives may look like they work, correlation does not equal causation, even though our pattern seeking brains want to think it does.

The same holds true for fish - people really want to feel that they are doing something so they are happy to shell out money for a product of questionable efficacy. In other words, there is no additive or supplement that has been shown to actually prevent ich outbreaks, even though people will swear that 'it worked for them'. But that is anecdote, and no matter how sexy and helpful it sounds, it still doesn't mean that it works.

So, feed your fish well, feed them often and try to keep things stable. I would much rather reefkeepers spend money on that stuff, and time really doing their homework than trying to find a solution in a bottle that prolly does nothing.