Interesting post from Walt about Tonga

Discussion in 'Other Reef Talk' started by Thales, Jul 24, 2008.

  1. Yes, youre right. Slander is a defamatory statement that is spoken, while libel is written. In my haste to respond, I didnt realize I had them mixed up. Thanks!
     
  2. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    And you call yourself a lawyer! ;)


    Out of curiosity though, Gresham made an interesting point about if the wild collection was shut down the hobby would collapse, by pressure from a group. Now are we talking each individual island? Because I find it hard to believe someplaces would want to stop their "gravy train", or we talking simply a ban on imports to the US? Which makes me wonder how much of the MO hobby is non-US? Surely the goods will be manufactured, perhaps it'll be harder (more expensive) to acquire equipment.
     
  3. tuberider

    tuberider Guest

    Mike,

    What Gresham is saying is, in the future there is a potential a ban on all imports, they would be illegal, done, over, kaput, nada, no mas. Like wild parrots, monkeys, Pandas, pangolins etc.

    That drives the demand down for dry goods which causes a rise in price in regards to said dry goods. It could easily get to a point where the domestic companies (or company as it's heading towards) would fold due to lack of revenue, or leave the country which I don't see happening because CGP has a strangle hold on the industry, and it is such a small part of their operation they would most likely shut that portion down and write it off. Of course the rest of the world will keep on turning, but many countries have stricter import laws already, or just don't have the wealth in the general population to sustain larger companies. It's gonna get interesting if the big boys don't clean themselves up, and hobbyists demand ethics from their suppliers by talking with their $$$$.
     
  4. GreshamH

    GreshamH Guest

    Man Jeremy reads me like a book :D

    The US consumes something like ~80% of the LR imports, ~60% of livestock and as far as dry goods, dunno.

    Many stations would go under as they are heavily US funded. Others could survive but they would have to raise prices. Prices globally would rise (not a bad thing really). My dream is one day 104th wakes up and finds damsels now land for $2.50 each, sell for $5 on the wholesale market and $15-$20 at the store. Low ballers would be charging $10 each :) And so on and so on :)

    The deal with our trade as I keep saying is the economy of scale. Just an example, nothing implied by this as we're actually growing while others are shrinking :) If I had to scale down our product line due to lack of sales our production cost would go shooting up. We'd have to raise prices which would make it harder for dealers to buy, as well as for the consumers.

    Look at dive groups like ScubaBob and you'll see the venom and lies we actually face. The TIME article is a clear case of the venom. The article was talking about a HI park. It then went on to talk about the perils of CN in the same paragraph leading the reader thinking that since that is now a park us MO dudes won't be juicing CN all over the place. There is no CN in HI, those boys do not need that junk.
     
  5. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    Yeah I read about the snorkel bob bitchfest. Upon my trip to Maui & Kauai (which granted is very limited), what I saw were some nice smaller areas with lots of corals, not much algae, growing nicely, plenty of fish, some areas that were really over-run with algae, not many fish, but one common denominator for all those places were the people who were doing a lot of the damage simply touching corals, using them to "walk" around certain parts of the reef while snorkling, who knows maybe I would have done the same thing had it not been for knowing what that potentially can do.

    So yeah, over harvesting of certain fish is never a good thing, but Snorkel Bob is looking out for his own cash cow and damn the damage they're doing.
     
  6. Thales

    Thales Past President

    Latest from the RC thread:

     
  7. GreshamH

    GreshamH Guest

    Too bad Chris missed the mark on the crow bar comment. They use it to collect FLAME HAWKS there buddy, not coral :D But he's a coral guy, not a fish guy, so I'll give him a break.
     
  8. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    When did Chris sell reefermadness? No wonder the site looks so different and there's not a magically delightful story about every coral on there anymore.
     
  9. hiepatitis

    hiepatitis Guest

    I would be interested in seeing a study done there as he suggests. Does anyone know about the Fiji situation? Are they really collecting at a sustainable rate?
     
  10. sfsuphysics

    sfsuphysics Supporting Member

    A couple interesting things he mentions, someone did a study that said they only took 0.001% of the corals, that's around 1/100th a square mile worth of corals which is a lot depending upon the time frame. The sustainability aspect would be if that area actually grew back in the time frame it took to get the next 0.001%

    Also they mention 20% of the corals went back into the ocean to rebuild the reef? How effective is that? I've always suggested that if the coral reefs die hobbyists would have the only corals left to transplant (tongue in cheek mind you), but couldn't imagine if that would work. Hobbyist tanks vs scale of reefs is like earth vs solar system.

    However I think it was Rich who mentioned it, seems like it's getting down to a he said/she said type of argument, first Walt mentions an "expert" who owned a store, now Chris comes in as an "expert" as well. Not that I know the expertise of these two individuals at all, but did think it was a little funny.
     
  11. GreshamH

    GreshamH Guest

    Sorta correct Mike. It's .001% coral counts, not mass. He's talking TOC types studies. Don't ask me what it stands for, I just know it's total catch :lol:

    All the work I've seen points to Fiji being a sustainable "coral fisheries" model.
     
  12. Thales

    Thales Past President

    One of the most frustrating things to me about this side of the industry is the lack of data. It serves to pump up the he said she said confusion (maybe its intentional). It all sounds good, but I without data and evidence its impossible to know what the truth is.
     
  13. tuberider

    tuberider Guest

    Hiep, an environmental impact report (not statement) on that scale would cost an incredible amount of money. The problem is who is going to foot the bill? Fiji? WS? the hobbyists? Who is going select who is to do the report? the Fiji Govt.? Industry? Al Gore? Plus, "certification" has been tried before, but the money disappears *poof* gone, like the Burger King twisting his ring, and were all left sitting on our hands wondering what's the right thing to do.

    I'm in favor of regulation don't get me wrong, but it is the actual execution and asking everyone to make a sacrifice that gets peoples panties in a bunch.

    I'll draw an analogy, when I drive up and down the PCH I watch a large upgrade to the city of HMBs water supply, they are raising the capacity and putting in a ton of new fire hydrants. Everyday I see the lonely biologist with the clipboard staring off into space. The kicker is the biologist sits there with the Audubon Societies guide the the reptiles and amphibians of the West, this girl (I call her girl because I have at least 15 years on her) looks fresh out of college, and obviously has no idea what she is looking at. A third grader could do her job, and we pay her to sit at a job site where the job will be going on for over a year.

    With all of the educated people in our country, especially the young greenies, we can't even find someone that knows native species, of which they are most likely looking for a couple of indicator species. How do we expect to find people that know anything about the complexities of a reef OUTSIDE of sitting in a classroom. When I was in a MRM program, I got frustrated and left because none of my classmates could keep a goldfish alive, let alone 20,000 hybrid striped bass. It's very frustrating, and one of the main reasons I left the hobby years ago, it's sad I can't stay away.
     
  14. GreshamH

    GreshamH Guest

    [quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50298#msg50298 date=1217266849]
    One of the most frustrating things to me about this side of the industry is the lack of data. It serves to pump up the he said she said confusion (maybe its intentional). It all sounds good, but I without data and evidence its impossible to know what the truth is.
    [/quote]

    Fiji has the data, I've seen a few of the reports :)
     
  15. Thales

    Thales Past President

    That's more he she said. :D

    Is the data available to hobbyists?
     
  16. GreshamH

    GreshamH Guest

    [quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50307#msg50307 date=1217270919]
    That's more he she said. :D

    Is the data available to hobbyists?
    [/quote]

    have you even searched for it or even attempted to find it prior to saying it's more he said she said? I found it and I am a hobbyist ;)

    Send Fiji Fisheries an email, or google scholar the author listed in Chris's post. Nothing is a simple as my handing it to" the hobbyists", they have to be creative just like me :)

    Besides, I deleted it long ago. Try searching RDO, it was posted there eons ago.
     
  17. Thales

    Thales Past President

    Well...
    Saying I saw the data but don't have it is he said she said! :D Its kinda like Ron saying the data is out there about sand beds all you have to do is find it. Of course you know this is not really about you at all. Besides, do you want me to look for the papers or do you want me to finish the graphic work? :D

    I think if the industry is really interested in 'doing it right' that that data would be readily available. If I were Walt, and was positioning myself in the industry/hobby as someone who cares I would absolutely make the data that supports my claims easily available to the public. It does look like walt is doing that, its coming soon, and he does have pdf's on his site, but they are 'forbidden'. :D

    Besides, even if the data is available it still becomes he said she said - look at what happens with studies of reef foods!

    My frustration I guess is more about the world in general. Its seems impossible to believe anything anymore unless you see it yourself, and even then, you have to wonder what was changed when they knew you were coming to take a look.

    An independent 3rd party organization that did spot checks might be nice...
     
  18. tuberider

    tuberider Guest

    [quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50310#msg50310 date=1217272622]

    An independent 3rd party organization that did spot checks might be nice...

    [/quote]

    While I agree with this, IME the people that hire the 3rd party hire the people that say what they want to hear, who's going to make the call?.

    Like you said Rich "even if the data is available it still becomes he said she said", it's damn frustrating because so many people make decisions based on emotion, rather than science, and hard data.
     
  19. Thales

    Thales Past President

    No one hires the third party. Independently funded and all that. Its my pipe dream. Got 10 million? :D
     
  20. tuberider

    tuberider Guest

    [quote author=Thales link=topic=4168.msg50312#msg50312 date=1217274496]
    No one hires the third party. Independently funded and all that. Its my pipe dream. Got 10 million? :D
    [/quote]
    Should we do a BAR bake sale? :D
     

Share This Page