Pump suggestions for Piper

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Piper, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. BAYMAC

    BAYMAC Guest

    I was truly only asking in regards to rotation as that is 100% what the clicking is from, not from starting soft. Starting soft can, and will, still send it either way.
     
  2. zeroinverse

    zeroinverse Guest

    Depends on how you define SOFT-START.

    With a properly designed "electronic circuitry", the pump can detect if the rotor (i.e. propeller) is spinning backwards (through back-EMF and/or hall-effect sensors). Then the soft start can be "resynched" so the stator's magnetic field is adjusted so the rotor starts spinning the right way.

    Not sure if any of the Tunze, Koralias, etc do this, but this was back in my grad school days when I controlled sinusoidal brushless DC motors by "controlling the commutation to minimize torque ripple".

    Just saying. ^_^
     
  3. BAYMAC

    BAYMAC Guest

    I'm using the term "soft-start" how the aquarium industry has used the term for a decade and a half. The marketing used, it simply means there is a slight ramp up so the impeller doesn't rattle. The clicking from AC pumps is from the impeller hitting the stopper though, not the same as the rattling of a impeller. I don't know of any AC aquarium pumps that can start in the same direction not using a stopper, but I haven't been watching Korallia too closely so maybe they have one?

    Also, please note I said AC in my post, not DC. DC is a totally different ball game when it comes to aquarium pumps. DC pumps were not in the industry 15 years ago when soft-start was all the rage for "wave makers"
     
  4. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

    It is pure speculation without dissecting one or asking Koralia of course.
    But my guess is it is a solid state controlled split phase / dual winding motor.

    Decent document on that here:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onsemi.com%2Fpub%2FCollateral%2FAND8017-D.PDF&ei=cakRUdXmBoTvrQH3hIDoDw&usg=AFQjCNGxdIYi6SNXLRY6jcX5_0mMo1TG4w&sig2=qhRIxazf-QK5nbhW7KnVlQ&bvm=bv.41934586,d.b2U
     
  5. zeroinverse

    zeroinverse Guest

    The SOFTSTART your referring to is that there was the use of TRIACS (solid state relay devices) instead of electromechanical relays. EM relays simply click on at any time and do not wait for the zero-crossing of the AC power. This causes the motors to "lurge" in cases where you are at the PEAK of the AC waveform. Using Triacs allowed the zero-crossing and help reduce the "instantaneous torque impact" on the rotor.

    ====
    To clarify, AC motors used in the aquarium industry work basically like brushless DC motors.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_AC_electric_motor

    Here's why:

    Brushless DC motors use a "polarized" rotor magnet with rotating magnetic field on the stator (i.e. coil windings in the housing). The "electric current" fed to the stator electromagnet coils resemble an approximate AC waveform.

    Traditional AC motors used outside of aquarium industry uses brushes to allow the rotor (rotating core) to generate a magnetic field that tries to chase after another moving magnetic field on the stator.

    The AC motors used in aquarium industry (due to not wanting to electricute all the fish) uses a polarized rotor magnet (like in brushless DC motor designs). Then they simply apply a rotating magnetic field on the outside. Typically, this rotating magnetic is simply the AC electric power. This simplifies the design, but it also means the motor can only rotate at 60Hz (unless there is fancy electronic circuitry to frequency modulate the AC waveform to increase/decrease the AC frequency).


    The reason the aquarium industry has DC pumps is for the simplified controllability since with PWM, power mosfets, and 3-leg H-bridges, you can easily use DC to create a trapezoidal or sinusoidal AC commutation waveform to control the motors at different speeds.

    While AC pumps could be controllable, the circuitry design is more complex since it's analog circuit design compared to simpler digital circuit design.
     
  6. Piper

    Piper Guppy

    So while I was saving up my pennies for a MP-40, or two, I ran across the Jebo (Jebao) WP-40 on the ReefAngel forum and the ReefCentral forum and thought I'd give one a shot. I got it today and wow, this thing can move some water! There is a "W1" wave mode built into the controller and depending on how you dial it in, it will get a wave going to will easily push water out of the tank.

    For the money this is a very nice pump but it's a little too big for my 65 gallon tank. Construction seems pretty solid and it is very quiet. I'm going to let Roberto @ RA have a crack at this one for a while to see if he can find a way to control it with the RA (seems like it is controllable via PWM) then I'm going to sell it and wait for the smaller (WP-20 or WP-25) units to come out.

    I think these will be a good alternative to the clicking Koralias if they hold up over time. If these can eventually be controlled by the RA or some other controller that will be the icing on the cake.

    ~Charlie
     
  7. denzil

    denzil Webmaster

    It definitely looks like it has a rather large footprint but seems like a decent product for the price. Thanks for sharing your experience, Charlie!
     
  8. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

    Yes, the key will be longevity and real quality, which Jebo is not really known for.
    (Google " Jebo Odyssea fire")
    Sure looks a lot like a Tunze also. I thought they had some key patents on that magnet/mount.
     
  9. Piper

    Piper Guppy

    Yep. I think it's a bit too early to get excited about them as being a replacement for anything but Koralias at this point. Give it a year or two and we'll see what happens. I'll still pick up two of the smaller units when they come out and give them a shot.
     
  10. gimmito

    gimmito Supporting Member

    Good thing they're in water so they can't spontaneously combust. ;)
     
  11. Piper

    Piper Guppy

    Good thing I didn't buy the heater and lights too :)
     
  12. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

  13. gimmito

    gimmito Supporting Member

    The funny thing was the guy who responded had a jebo/odyssea heater explode, a light fixture that caught on fire, and finally a powerhead that literally caught on fire in his tank. You would think after the first mishap he would have thrown the rest of thr stuff away. :D
     
  14. Piper

    Piper Guppy

    A buddy of mine from work has been in 3 or 4 plane accidents/crashes and survived. If it were me, the only way I'd ever get on a plane again after the first one is B. A. Baracus/A-Team style.

    This is really making me think again on these things. Maybe I'll give it a a few months and see how everyone else does first :)

    You really have to wonder if what that guy said is true though. I might have made it past the heater, it happens, but the fire? I don't think so. Maybe there is a little embellishment going on there.

    ~Charlie
     
  15. rygh

    rygh Supporting Member

    What! You read it on the internet - it must be true.
    ;)

    Almost certainly some embellishment. I agree, after the first 1-2, I would use a different brand.
     
  16. denzil

    denzil Webmaster

    Yeah, I'd question that person's sanity and validity of his statements if he/she's using the same brand after the second time around.
     
  17. eldiablosrt8

    eldiablosrt8 Sponsor

    charlie i say go for it and make sure you put your tank on a webcam so we can watch the fireworks
     
  18. Piper

    Piper Guppy

    I thought I'd dig up this old thread and give you an update on my noise/flow issues. Roughly 3 months of solid use on my WP-40 and it has not caught on fire or exploded yet! Even better, I can barely hear it run and absolutely no clicking!!!!

    If you haven't been following on ReefCentral (I haven't followed that thread for a little over a month now) and/or the ReefAngel foums, Roberto (newhobby here) came out with a cable that allows you to hook the Jebau pumps (and other DC pumps) up directly to your RA and ditch the stock controller. Many (I think that may be all now) of the wave functions from the stock controller (and those of the MPXX) are now part of the RA libraries. with my RA I was able to dial it down to 70% power which reduced what little noise it did have even more. I picked up a MP10 WES at the same time and my MP10 is definitely louder at 100% power than the WP-40 at 70% power. I ordered one of the WP-25s last week and when that comes in I'm going to use it to replace the MP10. I may eventually replace the WP-40 with another WP-25 if I like it and I get enough flow out of it just because the WP-40 is so big.

    All in all, I'm very happy with the WPs so far. Now I just need to wait and see how they really hold up over time.

    ~Charlie
     

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