High Tide Aquatics

Lukes 20 Gallon Tank Journal Restarted

LukeTheReefer

LukeTheReefer

Guest
BARcard
20 Gallon IM AIO tank
-Running Filter sock on one side, and filter floss on the other with tons of bio filters in the back.
-Using AI Prime (nano Karen light schedule)
-Cheap Chinese ATO
-Cheap Chinese Powerhead (broke)
-Use reef roids for corals
-Cobalt heater
-Ocean Nutrition Prime reef flakes for fish.
-2 Piccaso Clownfish
-Royal Gramma
- use instant ocean reef cyrstals salt

My maintenance schedule looks like this:

30% Water change once a week
Water testing 2 a week with
feed corals 2 a week
Feed fish every day
Replace filter floss and sock 1 a week
Refill ATO every other week
I do not do any sort of dosing, don't see a need for it rn
Add 5ml of bacteria 1 a month

1/22/21
I started my original tank about a year ago, after getting the tank and light for Christmas. Had to save up for the other accessories (ATO, Heater, food, etc). Originally I got myself a Frogspawn coral, some GSP, an acan, and a Zoa. Only had originally bought one head/polyp of each. After half a year I had a ton of growth but did not purchase any new corals due to COVID 19 and the fact that I have to use my own money to buy stuff, so my tank was still quite empty. A few months later I had begun to develop dinos (the one that does not go into the water column). This was a big hit. I tried many things to get rid of them with no success, which might have been due to my lack of experience. Eventually, it had gotten out of control and sadly caused my acans to die. So I decided to temporarily put my livestock and other corals in a cheap tank from Petco with a cheap HOB. and moved the light to this one. Had this running for about a month. During that time I let my other tank completely dry out hoping to kill off all the dinos. A couple of weeks ago I restarted the original 20-gallon onde and put everything back into. So far so good, no dinos insight. I even was able to pick up a nice leather from a fellow BAR member in the pay it forward section(which is looking great and has become the centerpiece of the tank.) The tank is still pretty empty but I am currently saving up to splurge soon on some corals and to buy a new powerhead( return pump flow has been okay for flow for the time being). All the corals are looking great and the fish are more than happy. Parameters are perfect (knock on wood).

Now with this other cheap tank and HOB I had to buy, I plan on either using it for a frag tank in the future (would need to save up for a cheap Chinese light) but for now a quarantine tank.


Learn more about me in my welcome post
I Will update every month/ and when other things happen(new corals, issues, etc)
 
Glad you were able to get rid of your dinos, even though it took such extreme methods. If you have any issues in the future, let us know; I have a microscope that I'm happy to either lend out, or (as has been more frequently the case) take a water/sand sample, pass it off to me, and I'll ID what you have/help you figure out how to fight it. Low/undetectable phosphates tend to predispose tanks to dino blooms, as does low biodiversity, so—if you'd like—I have a small chunk of live rock from my frag tank I'd be happy to give you as well when you come pick up the stuff from my PIF.
 
Srt4eric said:
Any pictures of the tank before the dinos hit?
Click to expand...

cb5dca57a694bf8c89a9f8b01cd006fb.jpg



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Definitely jinxed myself
After the post a couple of days ago on how my tank has been doing good for a couple of weeks after letting rock and sand dry out to beat dino. I wake up this morning to what looks like dinos again. My hypothesis of why they are back is because there must have been some trace still on my corals or bio-balls. couldn't have been from the equipment because I thoroughly cleaned it, don't think it would be from the rock and sand because I would think letting it dry out would completely kill it. I also don't think it could have occurred naturally in such a short time, but possibly. So my only logical explanation is that it was on either the coral or the bio balls, even though I cleaned them to the best of my ability. Luckily it hasn't taken over the tank yet. This time around I'm thinking I will try to beat it by dosing Si to encourage Diatom growth and outcompete the Dinos. I have read on R2R on the basic instructions on dosing here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/amphidinium-dinoflagellate-treatment-methods.365850/ . Im planning on ordering some Brightwell SpongeXcel for the Si dosing, but for testing, I haven't decided what to do. The Salifert test kit is much cheaper, but I have heard many people say it doesn't work and is very hard to use. On the other hand, I could get a Hanna tester which is more reliable but a lot more expensive. Do you guys think it would be justified to buy the nicer one? Wondering if anyone has good experience with the Salifert test/ or if anyone has a Hanna low range silica tester they could let me borrow. Also any other ideas/ methods for treating this dino that is more effective or reliable. Willing to try anything at this point. Love to hear what you guys think I should do. Going to be running tests on water after school and practice and will update what they are.
 
A couple points before you begin treating dinos:

1. Are you sure you have dinos and, if so, what subtype you have? How were they diagnosed? I'm happy to take a water/sand sample if you want to confirm dinos before proceeding (which I would highly recommend).
2. What do your nitrates and phosphates look like?

I would argue that dinos are present in almost every reef system. I know for a fact I still have some in my tank (I've seen them on samples I've taken, in extremely low levels), but I would be willing to argue that dinos only become a pest when your tank conditions predispose them to outcompete most other microorganisms. Causes behind this can vary but (anecdotally, from what I've seen on forums/my own experience) seem to typically revolve around nutrient imbalances (zeroed out, or low, phosphates and/or nitrates) or a lack of biodiversity, both of which help them outcompete other microorganisms.
 
What are the current params? Do you have bottomed out nutrients which could be causing the dinos?

I agree with IOWL, check other possibilities first. the approach you proposed with dosing silica and getting specific tests just for this one use seems aggressive for a small tank like this.

You can view my journal in my signature, early on I had something that appeared to be dinos. My attack was a blackout, added UV, and raised nutrients. But honestly, I think I may have just had diatoms. So I would ensure you have the right ID before attacking
 
IOnceWasLegend said:
A couple points before you begin treating dinos:

1. Are you sure you have dinos and, if so, what subtype you have? How were they diagnosed? I'm happy to take a water/sand sample if you want to confirm dinos before proceeding (which I would highly recommend).
2. What do your nitrates and phosphates look like?

I would argue that dinos are present in almost every reef system. I know for a fact I still have some in my tank (I've seen them on samples I've taken, in extremely low levels), but I would be willing to argue that dinos only become a pest when your tank conditions predispose them to outcompete most other microorganisms. Causes behind this can vary but (anecdotally, from what I've seen on forums/my own experience) seem to typically revolve around nutrient imbalances (zeroed out, or low, phosphates and/or nitrates) or a lack of biodiversity, both of which help them outcompete other microorganisms.
Click to expand...

Just tested, my phosphates are reading 0ppm and my nitrates are reading around the 10ppm mark


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LukeTheReefer said:
Just tested, my phosphates are reading 0ppm and my nitrates are reading around the 10ppm mark


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Click to expand...

Okay. So, this is my 0.02 and I am far from the expert on this, but this would be my course of action rather than jumping straight to silicate dosing:

1. Check to make sure you are dealing with dinoflagellates first before doing *anything* else. I cannot emphasize this enough, because you cannot tell what you are dealing with at the macro level, and this will heavily inform your approach.

2. If you are dealing with dinoflagellates, identify what type (typically done during step 1). If you have ostreopsis, prorocentrum, or large-cell amphidinium dinoflagellates, they go into the water column; if you are dealing with small-cell amphidinium, they do not. If it is *not* small-cell amphidinium (or another dino species that doesn't go into the water column), consider getting a UV sterilizer to help kill dinoflagellates in the water column.

3. Immediately prior to next steps, siphon out as much of the dinoflagellate 'gunk' as you can from your rocks/sand to minimize the amount you have in your tank.

4. Perform a 72-hour blackout. If it's not in direct sunlight/doesn't receive a lot of sun, you don't need to wrap the tank (though it may help). Dinoflagellates are photosynthetic, bacteria/other organisms aren't. This helps non-dino microorganisms get a better foothold.

5. Start feeding heavier to get your phosphates up (similarly, if you are running GFO/phosban/etc, stop). Undetectable phosphates is a common precipitating event for dino blooms (my hypothesis being they outcompete other microorganisms under limiting nutrient conditions). Feeding more heavily, or feeding coral foods like Reef Roids, helps bring phosphates up. (Related note - I have a small container of Reef Roids I'm happy to give you when you pick up the other stuff.)

6. Add in biodiversity. One way to do this is by putting live rock from an established tank into yours. Another way to accomplish this is with bacterial mixtures (such as Microbacter 7). Take the recommended dose of bacteria and mix it with about 10-20x the volume of tank water. Take a turkey baster and 'inject' this mixture into the sand where you saw patches of dino-gunk, mixing up and down with the turkey baster. This should help kick dinos into the water column, as well as getting bacteria into areas they wouldn't by just being added to the water column.

7. If you have a protein skimmer, I would suggest running it during this time given the additional dinos in the water column. I would also STRONGLY suggest running a higher-than-normal amount of activated carbon given that dinos (particularly ostreopsis) can release some pretty nasty toxins that'll piss off and/or kill stuff in your tank.

Again: just my 0.02, but I would start here prior to going to more esoteric solutions. This approach seemed to serve me well when I had a bad prorocentrum dino outbreak in my 20g last year after prolonged undetectable phosphates, and my tank has been dino-free for ~7 months now.
 
After getting it tested by @IOnceWasLegend we determined it is Prorocentrum dinos. So after meeting with him I went to Neptune and bought the IM AuquShield UV sterilizer and have been running it. Upon testing the waters, my nitrates were around 70ppm and my phosphates were reading 0 (but I use the API test kit which goes from 0-.25, so i assume it's somewhere between that. I know it is recommended not to do a water change while dealing with dinos, but the nitrates are too high for my liking even though my livestock looks to be fine with it. So I will be performing 40% water change siphoning and scraping all the rest of the gunk off. I will then dose some Microbacter 7. I will then begin a 72-hour blackout with my UV running. And see what if that can put a good dent in the dinos. May I also note that I have what looks to be red cyano growing around my tank, which I believe is a good sign because it means that the dinos aren't getting as many nutrients (might not be a good sign though) I believe this can be pretty easily removed by just dosing some chemiclean. I also have a small bag of carbon that came with my tank I got last year, I will be putting it in and it should help the toxins that can be released from the dying dinos. Besides the dirty-looking sand and rock, my fish and corals look happy and healthy though so that's a good thing. Let me know if you guys would suggest doing anything differently or anything else I should be doing.
 
Double check your phosphate. I wasn’t watching my phosphate or nitrate close enough over the last several months. Once I tested I found that phosphate bottomed out (zero) and nitrate was elevated. As soon as I started dosing phosphate my nitrates came down rather quickly.
 
I’m curious what you feed that causes nitrates to go so high but not phosphate?

If you’re looking for a food source to raise phosphate reef roids has done it for me in the past. If you take that approach just be slow with it as it really can quickly raise po4
 
if you have dinos, seriously consider dumping in some Vibrant (like 2x the recommended dose). Hasn't ever harmed coral in my experience and always gets rid of them, although its not something to be used on a regular basis. You'll still have to manage your nutrient situation, which I'd start by getting reliable phosphate testing(nitrate tests are too uncorrelated with actual nitrate levels), but I think Vibrant contains bacteria strains that will actually eat the dinos.
 
max_nano said:
I’m curious what you feed that causes nitrates to go so high but not phosphate?

If you’re looking for a food source to raise phosphate reef roids has done it for me in the past. If you take that approach just be slow with it as it really can quickly raise po4
Click to expand...

I have been using reef roids, idk why it hasn’t gone up so much either.


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Just concluded my 3-day blackout, so far the tank is looking very clean from the dinos, which is fantastic. Hoping that the battle is coming to an end. The corals are looking great and healthy. But there is one thing that is very worrying to me. One of my clownfish seems to not be able to see that well. It is constantly bumping into the walls and rock, and it is only hugging the wall. It only eats food when it comes close to it by random chance. Unlike before when it would actively go find the food. The other fish seem perfectly fine. Idk if the blackout may have done something to its eyes, whether it is permanent or temporary. I don't see any visible disease that I know of on it. What do you guys think is happening and what I should do to solve it if any.
 
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