The controllers are a serious investment but once you have it locked in- makes such a difference day to day and weekly operations.yea sorry it was just a 1000 ft viewwill definitely need a controller for automating stuff to make my life easier
Tank Parameters all over the place
- Thread starter spuri87
- Start date
Turkeysammich
Moderator
I’ve done awc for years and years. It’s not for nutrient export really. Unless you have a smaller aquarium. I did it for trace elements. Just to constantly get a little fresh elements in there. So yeah. It’s not gonna help you much right now. Later when you’re using a lot of elements then it might be worth it. Cuz your aquarium is on the larger size. If you did 1-2 gallons a day. That’s nothing. You would be wasting your time and money.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Erin has an extreme position to water changes, and he has been successful with this for a long time (although he is not testing his water
…). Also, keep in mind he is using natural sea water, which is in many ways quite different than the artificial saltwater we are using.IMO, it is not useless to have a routine in doing water changes, small or large.
Reef Moonshiners will argue against any water changes, others will advocate for larger water changes. It is like some love using Kalkwasser, others not so much (but we will not get into this now
…).I am in camp water changes, and those who I listen to all do it, some of them have very large 300+ gallon fully stocked acro tanks.
The objective of water changes is also debated.
Some believe it is nutrient export, some believe it is trace element replenishment.
While both are achieved, I would never do water changes for trace element replenishment. Also, to have a meaningful replenishment, you have to do large water changes, specifically if you have a fully stocked tank, otherwise you are always behind the curve with water changes and having the traces in good ratios. It is not a worthwhile effort to target traces with this.
I believe in the nutrient export objective of water changes. So Erin is correct, the more the better - to an extent. You have 100 mg/L NO3, replace 10% of water, you have 90 mg/L of NO3. Still better than not doing it, but not a great improvement. There is a problem with doing 10% and ‘polluting the water’ but 10%+ week over week. So if it is enough depends on how much nutrients are getting into your water.
However, I have been doing for months 30-40% of weekly water changes (up to 50 gallons out of 150 gallon total water), in addition to a strong skimmer and GFO. Any my nutrients never dropped below 10 mg/L NO3 and 0.1 mg/L PO4, my target parameters, unless I am adding relatively heavy carbon dosing. In this case, I am able to drop NO3 below 10 mg/L, but not phosphate.
Why: Feeding too much? Many say this should not be considered or needs to be accepted. Too many larger fish, most likely. So my tank is not well balanced with fish and nutrient export, unless I am replacing 30-40% of the water. An expensive effort over time.
The other downside of larger water changes I am experiencing at the moment is the effect of the anti-caking agent which raises iron and manganese into very (!) high levels. This does not happen with natural sea water.
Therefore, I am currently experimenting with weekly water changes with not more than 20%, because my working theory at the moment is that it will give me very similar results (I did less than 30% in some weeks and saw very similar parameters).
Lastly, I am personally against Auto Water Changes. Too much equipment is involved which can fail, and cleaning ‘some parts’ of the sandbed on a regular basis and most importantly the sump gives much more bang for the buck than replacing relatively clear water - unless you have a bare bottom tank. In this case, it could make sense, but I would focus more on the sump - in fact, I clean my sump weekly and some parts of my sandbed once a month.
tribbitt
Supporting Member
There are many levers to pull when reefing. The "water change" lever is a coarse-precision lever that generally pulls parameters towards the baseline, and thus can be a super useful and reliable tool. There's also other levers, like dosing, skimming, chemical absorbers, fleece rolling, etc, which can affect the tank. Some people choose to rely solely on a select group of levers and reject the others, which is fine.
The thing about doing water changes is that if you are doing them properly, it can only bring your water towards baseline, and is therefore generally "good enough" of a choice. You are just replacing water in your tank with water with parameters that are all within range (I guess N and P could be a problem if you are already bottomed out, but that's not an issue here).
Other methods are often more involved in terms of testing, monitoring, checking and tweaking.
The thing about doing water changes is that if you are doing them properly, it can only bring your water towards baseline, and is therefore generally "good enough" of a choice. You are just replacing water in your tank with water with parameters that are all within range (I guess N and P could be a problem if you are already bottomed out, but that's not an issue here).
Other methods are often more involved in terms of testing, monitoring, checking and tweaking.
I'm actually curious about this. What are you trying to remove from the water when you clean the sump and sandbed? What does that actually look like: are you removing sponges, mulm, etc?
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Detritus, mostly. There is quite a lot in the sump despite filter floss and reef diaper use (only for noise though, not for purpose).
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
this is the part I question though. It does not bring your parameters towards the baseline in many cases - directionally yes, but often does not offset consumption, i.e., for traces, so it is not good enough unless you have limited consumption aka growth, then it might work.
Same as for export, so in my nano tank, where parameters are often below 10 mg/L, 0.1 mg/L, I still do 30% water changes as it will only bring me down to 7 mg/L, 0.07 mg/L.
What I am trying to say is that water changes does not fix your export issue or restores traces, but it is more useful in the context of nutrients than it is in the replenishment of traces unless it is a beginner tank / low consumption low growth tank.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
That's a great point (I forgot to mention). Another big benefit of water changes are the continous removal of unwanted organics, which we now can test for (MS Organo, Oceamo) to at least some extent (drugs in the water etc).
For that reason alone, i am surprised why moonshiners insist that no water changes should be done even though there is a strong chance that there are unwanted organics in the tank which are getting ‘controlled’ by continous dilution.
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I love reading different perspectives that have worked for different people.. Some are extreme, some are more conventional - but they all have worked for people sharing in this thread! There are definitely more than 1 ways to bell the cat, and this is just the start of my hopefully long reef journey where I am able to test all these different methodologies myself and learn.. no water changes appeal to me a lot - saves time, money and my back! But for now short term plan is to try something majority in this group suggested - change water often! Theoretically what @tribbitt said makes sense that water changes take us closer to the baseline, but there are definitely other factors that contribute to the high nutrients.. would love to come back to this thread in couple of months to say what Alex said earlier - I can swear by water changes; they do wonders!
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tribbitt
Supporting Member
It brings it TOWARD baseline, not TO baseline. It won't be enough for everything, but it's often helpful and rarely hurts to do. It brings it however many % closer to the baseline as you decide to change.
tribbitt
Supporting Member
See how much dust settles onto an undusted surface in a month. And mystery chemicals that piggyback in on dirty hands or impure additives or trace metals in fish food or whatever erodes off of your algae scraper or pollen that has pesticides on it.
You don't need to know what's in your water to be able to rectify it just by doing a water change, which is the biggest thing for me.
FinalPhaze987
Supporting Member
Not entirely true, as there are those that run the moonshiners program and still perform waterchanges. The essence of it is stability, hence why there are daily doses of certain elements that are depleted quickly. I send in an ICP for each batch of salt I stock up on and do the corrective doses before performing a WC. Just my preferred method of nutrient export in addition to an algae reactor and CAC. For others running RMS, it means not changing the water at all, which of course comes with inherent risk.
To the OP, I recommend not to put any focus on trace elements at this time. You'd be focusing on getting 2% of your water right while the rest goes to crap. Find a salt that's close to what you wat to keep your tank at and go to town on multiple WC over the course of a couple weeks. There's not much I havent been able to resolve with a few good WC.
Your parameters will solve itself by doing so. So dont start going crazy dosing all sorts of stuff, you'd be wasting money.
Once your numbers are in line, take some time to get in tune with your tank.
1- stable salinity & temp
2- alk & alk & alk (not 3 different things, just stressing importance)
3- CA & Mg
4- nutrients (how much you import vs how much you export)
Some of the above you can keep stable by dosing, others, like nutrient balance, comes with time in developing your microbiome and a regular maintenance schedule to match your stocking level and feeding. I like the analogy of different levers that can be pulled by @tribbitt , and couldn't have put it better myself.
What you do and how you maintain will be entirely up to your system and what you feel is acceptable.
HTH
Not expecting 1 water change to magically reduce everything, but I like to track something so that I can go back and check what I did and if I could have done anything better, so documenting the numbers in this thread:
03/31 (1:30 PM) : About 20 hours after 1st 20% Water change (~40 gal) + 125g Rowaphos:-
03/31 (1:30 PM) : About 20 hours after 1st 20% Water change (~40 gal) + 125g Rowaphos:-
- pH: 8.0
- Alk: 8.3 (expectedly up from 7.7 in the initial reading since I used Red Sea Coral prod Salt with higher Alk)
- phosphates > .6ppm (Hanna Phosphorous ULR shows 200 ppb which is the maximum it can show, which roughly translates to 0.6 ppm phosphates)
- Nitrates > 75ppm max value on Hanna checker.. I also had an API kit and wanted to check if it gives me some idea on the actual number.. it showed BLOOD RED lol.. maybe nitrates are way over 200ppm going by this picture
Basically the Chernobyl meme. You're out of range for your test kits, therefore values could be insanely high. Either you need to dilute then retest, or make some massive changes.
I think you're way overstocked for such a young tank, have insufficient export methods (your skimmer is probably limited despite what it's rated at) and won't be able to catch up given that it's functionally a FOWLR (by coral to fish mass).
If you want to stay FOWLR then sure you're probably fine, but if it's built up that much N and P in 3 months of fish, that's a little scary.
I just assumed that a lot of water changes over the course of next few months will bring the number back in range, so current number is just 'X' for me which I know is super high but probably something I dont need to care.. Is my assumption incorrect? Do I need to know 'X'? Michael did offer me to borrow his High Range test kits, but just debating in my head if I do need to find X or not given that the number SHOULD (at least theoretically) come down below the Hanna range with a few water changes.
You are 100% right.. I did add Chaeto but that with a hard working skimmer may not be good enough for the kind of bioload I have in my system.. As I said in the thread somewhere, I wanted to stay a fish guy until I saw some of the awesome tanks from fellow reefers and now I want more from this hobby.. In your honest opinion, Is that even possible with so many fish in a young tank with the short and long term goals I stated yesterday or am I aiming for the stars and I should just stay FOWLR (maybe some softies and few LPS)?
my P were beyond Hanna's range even before I added the fish load.. As stated in the thread somewhere, I started with 0.3 phosphates on day 1 of the tank (probably leaching from the live rock I got from LFS) and it only creeped up.. within a month, even while doing Hypo on a few fish, Phosphates were always more than 0.6 ppm.. Never cared to test for Nitrates after the initial cycling period unfortunately, so dont have the baselines before the bio load.
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this was my conversation with my LFS guy on 2nd October AFTER he added Lanthanum Chloride but that didnt bring it down.. I added 1st fish on 11th October.. 155 translates to 0.475 ppm phosphates
and follow up conversation a week later (2 days before I added fish) after I added more Lanthanum Chloride.. I was clearly confused why there was no dent in the numbers as I heard that LaCl works like magic!
and follow up conversation a week later (2 days before I added fish) after I added more Lanthanum Chloride.. I was clearly confused why there was no dent in the numbers as I heard that LaCl works like magic!
Everything is guess work until you see clear numbers. I have the high range kitsnu can borrow or you can send in a icp if you want accurate.
Being honest her your kinda going to the extreme side of things before honest attempt s at basic measures. Large water changes do work.
Dosing lanthanum, Doing carbon vodka and vinegar dosing if I recall correctly from one of your recent posts. Those are all semi advanced things that wouldn’t be openly recommended to newer reefers. Considering your tank in general isn't very old, not even to the point of it being half way to maturing yet.
It's already been mentioned your bio load amount of fish is pretty insane, impossible to maintain no butnI doubt.any of the experienced reefers here not including myself by any means would consider taking on so many fish with this new of a tank.
Nothing in the hobby happens fast. Slowdown some and start with the basic things. Identify what your numbers truly are. Something that can be acted upon and not blindly reacted to and just hoping for the best based on what some others did from a random online post.
You've been given a crazy amount of advice recently more than you could begin to do or should do at once.
Corals aren't impossible to keep with your tank. Just speaking patience to you. Water changes do work. Heck plan for a few massive water changes probably what's been suggested to you here more than anything else. Rocks are leaching p04. They will keep leaching it for a while until numbers are in range over time.
Of course one large water change won't magically it but it would seriously help. It may take a few large water changes.
You have to know the real numbers before you know if the methods to lower them are being effective. Anything beyond that is just guessing and basically wasting your time going in circles. You've said this didn't work, that didn't work but how do you,¡actually know they weren't working without clear numbers.
I truly want to see you succeed here as does everyone else.
Being honest her your kinda going to the extreme side of things before honest attempt s at basic measures. Large water changes do work.
Dosing lanthanum, Doing carbon vodka and vinegar dosing if I recall correctly from one of your recent posts. Those are all semi advanced things that wouldn’t be openly recommended to newer reefers. Considering your tank in general isn't very old, not even to the point of it being half way to maturing yet.
It's already been mentioned your bio load amount of fish is pretty insane, impossible to maintain no butnI doubt.any of the experienced reefers here not including myself by any means would consider taking on so many fish with this new of a tank.
Nothing in the hobby happens fast. Slowdown some and start with the basic things. Identify what your numbers truly are. Something that can be acted upon and not blindly reacted to and just hoping for the best based on what some others did from a random online post.
You've been given a crazy amount of advice recently more than you could begin to do or should do at once.
Corals aren't impossible to keep with your tank. Just speaking patience to you. Water changes do work. Heck plan for a few massive water changes probably what's been suggested to you here more than anything else. Rocks are leaching p04. They will keep leaching it for a while until numbers are in range over time.
Of course one large water change won't magically it but it would seriously help. It may take a few large water changes.
You have to know the real numbers before you know if the methods to lower them are being effective. Anything beyond that is just guessing and basically wasting your time going in circles. You've said this didn't work, that didn't work but how do you,¡actually know they weren't working without clear numbers.
I truly want to see you succeed here as does everyone else.
Appreciate your reflection on the situation @MichaelB ..
In fact, I havn't tried anything except add Rowaphos and do a water change
FWIW, my short and mid term goals remain unchanged:
Short term plan:
I hvnt dosed anything or tried anything extreme (yet) after the 1st fish was added in the tank
In fact, I havn't tried anything except add Rowaphos and do a water change Again, the only thing that didn't work was before the 1st fish was added to the tank. that was LaCl, which didnt bring down the number as expected, but as you said, probably leaching from rocks.. Was sharing with Thomas coz probably he didnt read the entire thread.
hmm, that was my question to Thomas too.. does anything above 0.6 ppm Phosphates and 75ppm Nitrates matter? Anyways, I will borrow those high range kits from you and find the actual numbers, thanks much for the offer.
Thanks I just needed to read this
truly appreciate it
FWIW, my short and mid term goals remain unchanged:
Short term plan:
- Refugium: Got Chaeto from very generous @PizzaOven, added that to the sump.. Light @popper gave to me came useful as I didnt need to buy a refugium light for growing chaeto.. Thanks Max.. 8 AM to 5 PM main display lights are ON.. 5 PM to 8 AM refugium light is turned ON.. thanks again to Andrew for the suggestion around lighting schedule.
- Water change: Did a 20% (~40gallons) water change today.. Change 20-25% water 1x every week for 2 months.
- Replace Rowaphos (125g) every 2 weeks. Add in a reactor.
- Test Phosphates, Nitrates, pH and Alk once every week (wish I could do more, but setting a practical goal for myself)
- ICP test
- 1x 25% water change and 1x 10% water change every month.
- If Chaeto doesn't work, buy ATS.. thanks @PjFish for the suggestion, I read a lot about it and it felt like a solution that might work on my system.
- Start dosing Vinegar/Vodka
- Start looking at Ca, Mg more seriously and dose as necessary.