Mack’s reef support group

[Turkeysammich]

I saw this on a video walkthrough of reefapalooza. The website can be found on fb. He’s supposed to help with microscopic identification like dinos, diatoms,etc.
could be worth checking out and see if they have any good advice.

 

[richiev]

My opinion:
* helpful info on dino verification
* helpful info on toxicity of various ones
* nice to see others also struggling vs reef posts usually being glamour shots
* helpful general guidance on UV treatments
* tons and tons of pseudoscience repeated over and over by a cult following

The main issues I had were statements such as having a UV plumbed into the tank somehow catches UV in the water column, but doing it through an overflow doesn't (either dinos are really really good at swimming down, people have incredibly low turnover, or that makes no sense). Additionally that somehow dinos can grow like crazy when N&P are 0, but above zero they get outcompeted for those nutrients.

Also inverse statements like you can only kill dinos in the water column, and blackouts definitely reduce dino numbers temporarily, but blackouts don't work. Versus looking at nuance and mitigations.

Overall I think it's useful, but don't drink the Kool-Aid and be aware a lot of the people in there aren't applying the scientific method, to say that least.

 

[IOnceWasLegend]

Additionally that somehow dinos can grow like crazy when N&P are 0, but above zero they get outcompeted for those nutrients.

I agree with most of your other comments; I think this one has a bit of nuance, though.

My understanding/hypothesis: dinos have a competitive advantage under limiting nutrient conditions, but that advantage disappears when nutrients are sufficient and everything is more on even footing. I disagree with the notion that raising nutrients alone helps knock dinos out (because at that point you basically have a dinoflagellate monoculture, so of course they're going to devour the lion's share); more that it's a necessary, but not sufficient, condition.

But I 100% agree with everything else you said. And, as a former bench scientist, that the scientific method is far less common in animal and aquatic husbandry than I wish it were.

 

[richiev]

My understanding/hypothesis: dinos have a competitive advantage under limiting nutrient conditions, but that advantage disappears when nutrients are sufficient and everything is more on even footing. I disagree with the notion that raising nutrients alone helps knock dinos out (because at that point you basically have a dinoflagellate monoculture, so of course they're going to devour the lion's share); more that it's a necessary, but not sufficient, condition.

Good points and aligns with my beliefs, which I also acknowledge are not scientifically proven. I like to think they're at least logically coherent, but I'm sure everyone says that.

My longer version: https://www.bareefers.org/forum/threads/algae-id-cyano-dinos-diatoms-other.32011/post-460876

Summary being I believe it must be either predation or another constrained resource besides N & P. None of the other explanations seem coherent. Would be interesting to put a crap ton of dinos in a tank, do an in ICP test, let them grow like crazy with light and N & P additions, and then do another test to see if anything moved in an interesting way.

Predation though seems plausible, because we know things consume dinos (isn't that the underlying source of palytoxin?) and given how prolific they are something must've evolved to eat them. Otherwise everything would be dinos.

Edit: though to keep the discussion focused on the Mack's group, this is the type of discussion I'd love to see those groups oriented towards. However if you bring this up on there you'll get ad hominem attacks and spouting off anecdotes with no one being able to provide links to even back up the anecdotes.

 

[Coral reefer]

Sounds like a forum!

 

[Alexander1312]

I liked the group when I got Dino’s twice many months ago (and never since), and I followed their instructions, including learning how to use a microscope, which I had not done since 7th grade.

From a newcomer’s perspective, this was a helpful group as almost all of the other advice on Dinos elsewhere seemed too scientific for new reefers, and too much vague guidance is given elsewhere where people do not want to commit to clear statements because they fear they are being taken apart by the scientific community for not having enough evidence.

This is not a marine biologist group, they are pretty far away from it, and if you look at Mack’s background, its not like he has been reefing for a long time like many of you are. It still helped me think more about biodiversity in the tank, and motivated me to learn more about this topic overall in more detail, recognizing that not all of their advice is probably legitimate

Also, their ‘clear’ instructions are sometimes contradicting so you cannot stop thinking and apply their checklist based approach to resolving this issue.

Overall, this is an amateur group for amateurs and they have attracted quite an audience now - which puts them under more scrutiny from more knowledgable folks. They solved my problems and I would go about resolving future Dino’s issues with their guidance again unless I find a better source.