Neptune Aquatics

Of pumps....

S

sfsuphysics

Supporting Member
BARcard
Ok today one of the guys over at RC offered to sell two Vortechs at a really good price, $600 for two (which is over $200 off what they'd normally cost), and while I saw that early in the morning and was really tempted to jump all over it (however not knowing what was going on in the background of PM land), I got to thinking, why vortechs?

So at the high end of the price spectrum for pumps comes EcoTech & Tunze brand pumps, The EcoTech (vortech) runs up at $410, and Tunze has a variety of models, from $500 for a 5kGPH down to a $150 for a 1.5kGPH non-controllable model. Now the both companies have superior customer service to all, while I have not personally experienced it from Tunze (I don't own any of their products) I have experienced EcoTech's CS, and it's phenomenal to say the least. But that price thing really got me thinking. What is it other that CS that makes those pumps worth it. I mean you can do a Koralia 4 which isn't as powerful as the smallest tunze (but pretty damn close, and potentially more so with a different prop mod you can do) you can still buy 3 of them for the same price of a $150 Tunze, and 10 of them for the higher end version, approximately the same for MaxiJet modded with magnetic mounts.

Now granted the higher end Tunzes & Vortech pumps are controllable, and who really wants 10 pumps in a tank (even if it pushes about 2.5x the water), but it really makes me wonder about it all. And I chose Koralia & MJ Modded pumps because I think they are arguably "good brands" to stick with. I ended up not going for the pumps, although it would have been nice, but right now in my life a little bit of frugality is useful.

I have a couple vortechs and I love them, however for some additional flow I don't know if I'd rather pony up another $400+ or if a couple/few koralia or modded MJs would be better, granted.


So what do you people think? Why do you spend the big bucks on Vortech and/or Tunze?

BTW not meaning to turn this into a flamefest, but I am curious what drives people's purchases.
 
I think Vortechs are about 2x the price they should be. sure they are nice but IMO massively inflated. I honestly can't think of what would justify their high price. They do have some nice features, but not $410 nice.

The only thing that is especially nice with them compared to other options in the market, is their small foot print in the tank for the amount of water they move. That is about it (for me). Some people may like the wave action, but I like my 15min flop with the chauvet timer.

edit. well, I guess remove electricity from the water is nice, and so is the scalability of a single pump, but still can't imagine spending that kind of $ on a pair.
 
Why?
easy to show everyone that I have more $ than a lot of people ;D :D

J/K..
I like Tunze because the way it's pushing water. The K is nice but I don't like their V shape flow. I'm not sure they fix that problem with the new pump but a lot of older model had that problem. Tunze magnet is strong. No worry about it dropping to the sand bed. If you have a thick glass/acrylic, Koralia wouldn't work too well. The K4 magnet rated for 15mm thick glass but I wouldn't trust that. I had it on a 3/8" thick and it barely held on. Most Tunze pumps are controllable which is a really nice function. Tunze's powercord is also very long. K's powercord is like what 6-8'.. Having two Tunze pumps is much better than 4 Koralias.. Little thing like that make Tunze worth it. Oh and Tunze's CS is the best.

Between the Tunze and Vortech, I pick the Tunze.
 
For the current tank (gyre frag), the v-shape of the koralias works in my favor. I suppose when I get a large and proper tank one of these years, it will annoy me.

I'm with Lapsan on the 30% photosensor being a cool feature.
 
I went with the vortec since I want the flow, but in a smaller size pump/footprint. The other part was that the pumps were adjustable (plans for upgrades down the line) and also came with the option of running with a backup battery. Last time that I checked no other pumps could do what I was looking for.

Also, the prices were too tempting since it came from a group buy. I paid $430 for both the pump and the battery backup.

The photosensor on the tunze is nice. Currently not an option on the vortec, but Neptune Systems is currently working with Ecotech Marine on it.
 
A battery backup can be done with any pump by using a computer UPS. You can scale this depending on how many pumps and run time.
 
I went with vortechs because the design of my system was to have as little heat input as possible. I have no pumps in the water. My skimmer and return pump are both external as well. From my experiences, depending on water volume, each pump addition internally into the tank added1-2 degrees to constant running temp. I really wanted to maintain my temps around 75-78 without a chiller. I justified the costs through chiller and electricity costs.

Size, no cables, reefcrest mode, sync/antisync, battery backup are all other reasons in which I paid a crapload of money for them. I also like how the flow is so wide that it creates a strong undercurrent from the suction.
 
[quote author=Gomer link=topic=3750.msg43560#msg43560 date=1211175605]
I think Vortechs are about 2x the price they should be. sure they are nice but IMO massively inflated. I honestly can't think of what would justify their high price. They do have some nice features, but not $410 nice. [/quote]

They took a lot of time and money to engineer. They aren't just a power head and getting them to be able to be variable through glass was a lot of effort. They took a lot to make, so they cost a lot to buy.
 
[quote author=Gomer link=topic=3750.msg43573#msg43573 date=1211219684]
A battery backup can be done with any pump by using a computer UPS. You can scale this depending on how many pumps and run time.
[/quote]

But nothing like the battery back up features of the vortech. In an outage, the pump goes to half speed and will run for 30 hours. I think finding a UPS that will run a pump for 30 hours is going to cost more than a vortech and battery back up. IMO, this alone justifies the price of the vortech, and I am trying to figure a way to put at least one in my system. But, there is more. After 5 years, you send the battery back to icecap and for 60 bucks (I think) they will properly dispose of the old battery and replace it for you.
 
Thank you for the responses.

As I mentioned not looking to pair off one vs the other, but was curious about the reasoning behind buying a "pricier" pump, I didn't want to get into a "that pump sucks, this one is better, you're a fool for spending that much" type of debate. While price was mentioned as a reason, there is nothing wrong with that. I heard battery backup, foot print, ability to reduce power (I'm guessing controllability is also something), not wanting to put heat in the tank, lots of great reasons.

Now what I didn't mention is I also read an article on WWM where it compares various water movement devices (unfortunately I don't know how old it is, but being as they had a SEIO 1500 in there it can't be too old), and the result when comparing two comparable pumps as far as rated output, SEIO 1500 vs Tunze 6060, it said that the cost difference will be made up in power in 4.25 years... BUT when they used the cost 0.0669 per kWh. Now everyone here knows power aint that cheap, also the price of Tunze products have gone up, while the price of Seio products have gone down since that survey. Now the difference seems to be about $84 and 23watts between the two, and at 12 cents per kWh, it'd take upwards of 3.5 years to recoup the difference in price. (Sounds like another neat article I should write, the true price of your reef tank products! :D... maybe over the summer). Now in the true sense of apples to apples comparison this probably makes the most sense, since neither of these products are directly controllable, it's a single plug you're using, with the minor exception of actual flow patterns it's a pretty good comparison. This also neglects any sort of replacement part/how long it'll last comparison.

For me, I dunno, I'm known as Mister Cheap-Ass/DIY/Ghettofabulous reefer, but when I managed to pick up a Vortech for $300, New (mind you without the wireless driver/controller), I made an impulse by, unfortunately that was the last one he had in stock, and when I went back for another it was with the wireless drivers and while I did get $40 off the price, it's still a hefty margin to pay for a single controller. In reality I wish EcoTech had a wireless and a non-wireless line, as the $75 markup for every pump you buy is a little steep IMO, I'd rather have the option to go with their controller or a 3rd party, but whatever. The fact my tank has a very small cross sectional footprint (18" x 18") while being so damn long (6 feet) made the vortech pumps seem quite a nice fit. I also would like to try some Tunze pumps, however being as they are rather large, maybe I'll save those for my true show tank sometime down the road and now maybe stick with the Koralia 4 pumps or a modded maxijet for additional flow in those dead spots, or hell hook up my OM again, although I'd like that on a type of closed loop if possible.
 
One final thing that's a bit interesting of the pricing, is that regardless of where you shop, Vortech or Tunze pumps area all the same price at any place. Yet other ones can have a wide variety in price.

Also the price of older pumps have come down dramatically from the initial opening selling price, with the exception of the Tunze ones, which have gone up in price due to the falling dollar.
 
[quote author=orientalexpress link=topic=3750.msg43562#msg43562 date=1211179600]
i like how tunze can be reduce to 30% when the light is off instead of full blast all the time.corals and fishes need a break and save some power.:)


lapsan
[/quote]

Why are you making your animals suffer lower oxygen at night? Sure the real oceanic reefs do decrease in wave action at night, but they still have higher rates then our tanks do even at night :) Your corals depend on flow to remove waste and breath. Lowering your rates ensures both of those functions will be decreased for the lower flow duration.
 
[quote author=Thales link=topic=3750.msg43577#msg43577 date=1211227362]
[quote author=Gomer link=topic=3750.msg43573#msg43573 date=1211219684]
A battery backup can be done with any pump by using a computer UPS. You can scale this depending on how many pumps and run time.
[/quote]

But nothing like the battery back up features of the vortech. In an outage, the pump goes to half speed and will run for 30 hours. I think finding a UPS that will run a pump for 30 hours is going to cost more than a vortech and battery back up. IMO, this alone justifies the price of the vortech, and I am trying to figure a way to put at least one in my system. But, there is more. After 5 years, you send the battery back to icecap and for 60 bucks (I think) they will properly dispose of the old battery and replace it for you.
[/quote]

I find it ironic that today I got a letter in the mail saying that next friday, power will be out for about 8 hours (transformer install in the neighborhood)
 
hehe, I remember when I got one of those letters, at least they were nice enough to send me on! I thought I was planned I'd hook up a seio to a cheap inverter I got to plug into my car.... whoops cheap square wave inverters and pumps don't mingle very well, luckily I was able to take back the inverters. However with the vortech one of those cheapers might work, since the pumps themselves are DC and they run via a laptop transformer which typically has no problem with a square wave signal.
 
Earlier I said "I can't justify the price". I thought about it while taking a shower this morning (isn't that were most good thinking occurs?) and I actually CAN justify it.


First, lets look at apples and apples.

With a vortec at ~ $1000, you get a pair of variable PHs with up to 6000gph flow, a sleek profile, minimal heat in tank, photosensor (gen2), battery backup, and all sorts of flow modes.
The "cheap" equivalent won't be able to do all those things, but to match flow, you need 6 korlia 4s ($270) but to get wave control on their new setup, make tha $390. Then you need 3 controllers at $319 each, and now spend ~ $150 on a "minimal" UPS for battery backup. Even for a pair of koralias on the setup (which doesn't match the flow of a single vortech), you are looking at $650.

The very ghetto version could be 6 older koralaias ($270), a UPS ($150) and a chauvet wave timer $30. $450 got you the flow at 1/2 the price, not near the flexability, nor features, and a ton of powercords and junk in your tank.


Now lets compare apples and oranges
Lets go off a basic premise. If you believe the last presenter at the BAR meeting, then Flow is as important as light. How much do we spend on our lights?
Lets look at a 180g which you can easily cover with a 2x vortech setup.
A high end T5 setup (ATI) will set you back $1,229 for fixture and ONE year of bulbs (and that is $200 every year in replacements)
A pair of 400 watt lumenarc stealths with icecaps and bulbs will set you back (195x2 + 130x2 + 80x2) $810 plus at least $160 every year (or more frequent for some bulbs)
A MH/T5 setup..if something high end like an aquamedic or geissman, you are easily dropping well over 1000 plus $200/year on bulbs.
The ghetto version of any of these...is still up near $800 to 1000 unless you really skimp.

So ya, I can now justify the budget.
 
Actually, Jake thinks that flow is more important than light, in the same way that for you water is more important than food. :D
 
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