Reef nutrition

Alex’s IM 150 EXT

+100

I am surprised to hear that people are still pushing nutrient ratios as I thought that was largely debunked. (or anything to do with nutrients as a means of algae control). At any rate, Dinos are not algae anyway, though I'm sure you knew that! :)

Ha, I am glad you picked this up since I wanted to put this (contentious) statement out there for discussion. 100:1 was something I heard early on in my journey and then someone said this was a myth and I never bothered after that. Since Claude has come on (English speaking) air in the past 12+ months or so, he repeatedly stated that this ratio has significant value in his close to 40+ years of reefing, and he is considered an authority in Europe for a couple of decades. He does not focus a lot on target parameters but his believe is that ratios matter the most, also when it comes to traces. Therefore, the Fauna Marin ICP focus heavily on all sorts of ratios, including this (range is 90 to 110).

Now speaking of Dinos not being an algae - I did not know this - are you sure about this?
 
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Ha, I am glad you picked this up since I wanted to put this (contentious) statement out there for discussion. 100:1 was something I heard early on in my journey and then someone said this was a myth and I never bothered after that. Since Claude has come on (English speaking) air in the past 12+ months or so, he repeatedly stated that this ratio has significant value in his close to 40+ years of reefing, and he is considered an authority in Europe for a couple of decades. He does not focus a lot on target parameters but his believe is that ratios matter the most, also when it comes to traces. Therefore, the Fauna Marin ICP focus heavily on all sorts of ratios, including this (range is 90 to 110).

Now speaking of Dinos not being an algae - I did not know this - are you sure about this?

I love picking up contentious statements! That’s interesting re: Claude. Is there any evidence out there beyond Claude’s opinion? It seems many others (including scientists like RHF) don’t believe the ratio is important at all but I’d love to read more.

I guess it depends on how broadly you define algae - Dino’s are a distinct group that are technically included in the massive world of algae. But they are so different in many ways from the typical algae we see in the tank. Single celled, MOVE around . I don’t know of any herbivores that eat them, for example. Or any algae that enter the water column at night or flourish in the absence of nutrients. I’m sure someone will chime in with the cellular differences and better info - I’m just speaking in terms of general hobby knowledge and treatment.
 
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ICP Testing (Part 2)

I am currently on a monthly cadence to perform ICP tests until they are more or less dialed in, after which I will do them quarterly, and then hopefully do not need to do them more than 3 times a year.

After using Triton for a while, I have been using the Fauna Marin Reef ICP Total tests, which I purchase here: https://icp1999.com/product/reef-icp-test-total-set-of-3/. The tests cost 40 USD plus 7 USD shipping and it takes approx 7-8 actual days until they arrive at CoralVue in Louisina.

My approach assumes there is value in doing ICP testing, so the below thoughts are based on this assumption, and I recognize there are other opinions, and maybe I realize later that doing this was huge waste of money and time. For now, I strongly believe there is power in doing them, understanding and acting on the results.

After receiving the ICP results from Fauna Marin, I have been sending them to Chris Woods from Captiv8 who will send me back an analysis with the required dosing to get them to 'seawater' parameters, which might deviate from what Fauna Marin proposed target parameters. See attached Excel.

After receiving his feedback, there are two options: a) using their instructions and preparing your own custom solution very cheap, or b) asking them to prepare a 30 day / 1000 ml custom solution for you, which will cost 24 USD plus 12 USD shipping approx. I have done the latter twice, but will prepare my own solution next time for a fraction of the cost.

I am dosing the custom solution with an Ecotech Versa pump, an Octoaquatics bottle holder, and a 850 ml Voss bottle (picture). Now interestingly, I was not aware that the solution should not be exposed to strong light, according to Chris. Since I have a refugium with a 12 hour light schedule, I will start now wrapping the bottle in alumnium (could not find a sleeve that fits the bottle).

IMG_6454.jpeg

Another thing I am changing now is to not use activated carbon while I am dosing traces, in response to Chris's feedback on the use this:

Because trace elements, in particular cations, readily combine with latent organic material, that which is in the dissolved form will be removed from the system by activated carbon (as well as by protein skimming), making that material a passive means of trace cation export. The impact on most trace anions (other than iodine species) is less owing to their relatively low interaction with latent DOM and POM, however several trace ions critical to photosynthesis and related biochemical processes are cations (e.g. Fe, Mn, Co, Ni, Cu, Zn), so depleted values of those ions may be anticipated when activated carbon is employed.

Approx two weeks before the end of the bottle, I will submit another ICP test for further adjustments.

Feb 26 ICP sample

My latest results are included in the pdf attached. There is a more detailed analysis and recommendations and the pdf is only meant to show high level the outcome, but the value lies in their recommendations backed up by further content in their knowledge data base for additonal reading and deep dive into the meaning and impact of various trace elements.

They claim to be able to predict unwanted developments in your tank after 5 tests, based on their database of 100,000 + water samples collected globally, so will see when I am there. I will run the third test in a couple of weeks only.

Key outcomes:
  • Salinity is now back in line with target after changing the Milwaukee from PPT to PSU and aim for 35 PSU.
  • Alkalinity target is relatively low compared to what I had in mind. But this recommendation aligns with Captiv8 recommendation so I am going to aim for 7.3 going forward. Also, Hanna is the second time now testing 0.6 above what the ICP tested, so it seems I can 'rely' on this inaccuracy going forward, i.e., Hanna Alk of 8 is actual Alk of 7.4.
  • Nitrate and Phosphate are almost exactly how I measured them, with only a 0.1/0.2 difference for Nitrate and 0.01 for Phosphate.
  • Many values were actually pretty well aligned at the time, but several important ones needed attention. I am hoping that getting them in line will help with the Dino battle more holistically. Overall, they are still not where they should be an this results differs quite a bit from the last result where I only dosed Isol8 MT from Captiv8, an all in one product they offer.
  • Aluminum decreased from the last test and I have taken further actions which will hopefully further reduce this to an acceptable level. Also, I am working on changing my lid, as this seems to be the root cause (?).
 

Attachments

  • 26 Feb 2024_Fauna Marin ICP.pdf
    163.4 KB · Views: 22
  • Seile 2024-02-26 Captiv8 Aquaculture ICP Salinity and Ionic Value Calculator 2024-02.xlsx
    81.4 KB · Views: 19
I love picking up contentious statements! That’s interesting re: Claude. Is there any evidence out there beyond Claude’s opinion? It seems many others (including scientists like RHF) don’t believe the ratio is important at all but I’d love to read more.

I guess it depends on how broadly you define algae - Dino’s are a distinct group that are technically included in the massive world of algae. But they are so different in many ways from the typical algae we see in the tank. Single celled, MOVE around . I don’t know of any herbivores that eat them, for example. Or any algae that enter the water column at night or flourish in the absence of nutrients. I’m sure someone will chime in with the cellular differences and better info - I’m just speaking in terms of general hobby knowledge and treatment.
Probably just his opinion :), see some additional explanation below from their own knowledge database. But here comes another contentious statement: I take his practical approach to reefing over RHF's theoretical approach any day, since he is dealing with actual tank problems from his customers (individuals and companies/public aquariums etc), and receives a very large number of water samples and problem descriptions and has a significant volume of data he can reference. Again, I know we love RHF, and he helped me a couple of times with questions too, but I am trying the 100:1 approach for now even though it sounds like a first grade math approach.

IMG_1483.jpeg

Regarding Dinos. I was under the assumption they would be part of the generic algae group while having some distinct differences. So I am glad we are broadly aligned :).
 
BTW love the dimensions of your tank! My next tank will probably be very similar, maybe 5ft long though.
Well, IM just came out with their 240 gallon, already started the conversation at home, haha, no seriously, @SupraSaltyReefer talked me already into a bigger tank than I was planning to buy :) so I am good for now, but understand tangs would like a higher and longer tank, but I am sure they would prefer the ocean anyway. And I am very concerned about my floor so before I have a bigger tank, I will need to move, which is not unlikely though.
 
I

IMHO
10% WC is a waste of time
It’s not large enough to dilute
And not large enough to replenish
Consider a FART in an elevator...
Out with the nasty
In with the clean
Yes, agreed, understanding the reasons for water changes might make it clear that 10% will not cut it, one way or the other. I feel this 10% rule is something folks who sell salt invented. I have stopped water changes for this tank 5 weeks ago, and I am not planning to resume unless there is a specific need. Still working on finding a larger saltwater container which fits in my garage.
 
I have not been dosing any bacterial products in this tank, except this. I am not dosing this for diversity but as coral food and it might potentially strenghten fish health. None of these claims are proven, but it looks like the corals I have love this - I had no coral or fish death, or disease since I started using this 15 months or so ago. Related, not sure. Main disadvantage - it is not cheap unless you buy the large homegrow kit, which also has three species vs only one in the bottle.


IMG_6455.jpeg
 
How goes the battle? Still sticking with silicate dosing? Very curious about this and how soon you start seeing diatoms show up.
Whoa, what happened to ‘nothing goes fast in a reef tank’ :). These ‘no UV’ approaches take at least 2-3 weeks, best case. Will update this but I have only dosed this for a few days, and will check weekly on Saturdays with the microscope and post this here. Still, from what I am reading and based on my previous experience, this will work. Just a matter of time. Will keep you posted.
 
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