Kessil

Getting tired of testing and adjusting Alk/Ca. Trident?

kinetic

kinetic

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I'm constantly adjusting and testing for Alk/Ca. My tank is small, 40g, so it's tough to keep up. I'm testing daily almost, and adjusting as my corals just keep settling in.

I'm using an Apex Jr. that's totally maxed out at this point.

I have two DOS, currently dosing B-Ionic Alk/CA and Chaetogro (one head left over, maybe for Mg if I need it later).

I'm thinking of picking up a Trident, but I'll need a new Apex controller. Good news is everything else should work just fine with it.

Is that a good way to go? Or should I look at the Mastertronic series of machines?
 
Could you share more about how you are going about dosing and adjusting?

What you described sounds like you are doing something wrong.

How much are you dosing? What did your tank look like? (Fully grown in sps, etc).
 
xCry0x said:
Could you share more about how you are going about dosing and adjusting?

What you described sounds like you are doing something wrong.

How much are you dosing? What did your tank look like? (Fully grown in sps, etc).
Click to expand...

I just added two mini-colonies of SPS into a tiny 40g tank (Red Sea Reefer 170). It's been running for maybe 4 years now with a few anemones, and small SPS pieces. I recently lost a couple of them because they broke off the rock and ended up in tiny caves I couldn't get them out of. I did manage to save a walt disney piece, but it finally died after the third time it got knocked over. Anyway, I didn't have to change my dosing at all, things were very stable. I was checking my Alk/Ca levels only once a month and barely had to change anything. I was dosing about 20ml of B-ionic Alk and Ca components a day.

Now, with the two mini-colonies, every day it seems like I'm increasing my dosing. After a week, I've gone from upping it from 20 to 30ml (approximately for each), and then now I'm up to 50ml (give or take). I got a few different tests to make sure I was reading it right, and it definitely look like the uptick is pretty drastic.

I guess at some point things should even out and I won't need to do many adjustments daily, and I guess I could be lazy and just test once a week and make adjustments that way.

I'm also kind of a gear head/tinkerer, and I like exploring fun ways to make things easier/more efficient. Exploring things like this is a big part of the hobby for me, so that's why I kind of want to see if it would be helpful, but of course weigh the pros and cons.

So in summary:
  • Tank is fairly mature (about 4 years at least) and has been stable.
  • It's small at 40 gallons (estimated total volume) so little changes really make a difference.
  • Inhabitants are just 4 fish, magnifica anemone (small), and one BTA, which have been with me for most of those 4 years
  • I also have an encrusting sunset montipora, and (I think) a pearlberry. The flow is overly strong and linear where they are, so these pieces are fat and stubby. Kind of ugly tbh (I'm trying to change the flow too).
EDIT: I've found my solution of things getting knocked over (thanks to the community here). I'm doing IC Gel, aquastick, IC Gel, coral. The aquastick is key. I was just using IC Gel before. The aquastick (I guess it's like the Tunze Reef Epoxy thing) is great. I just use a huge chunk, and wedge it really far into the holes in the rockwork. It holds really well.
 
I have a Trident. I've only had it for a couple months now. I think it was extremely helpful in getting my tank stable quickly and dialing in my calcium reactor. I would strongly consider the mastertronic if I did not want to have an Apex for other reasons.
 
I use the kh guardian. It only monitors alk but it is stand alone and $450 for the device plus 6 months of reagent. It can connect to any controller that accepts a pH probe due to its bnc output so if you have an available port you could keep the apex jr. you can also run it without connecting it to a controller. I like that it doesn’t lock me into a specific brands ecosystem.

It also uses a mild acid as the reagent and is reef safe so the waste water returns to the tank so there’s no waste cup to empty, or salinity changes. Cons would be the noise it makes while testing, but that could be mitigated by having it in your tanks cabinet.
 
max_nano said:
I use the kh guardian. It only monitors alk but it is stand alone and $450 for the device plus 6 months of reagent. It can connect to any controller that accepts a pH probe due to its bnc output so if you have an available port you could keep the apex jr. you can also run it without connecting it to a controller. I like that it doesn’t lock me into a specific brands ecosystem.

It also uses a mild acid as the reagent and is reef safe so the waste water returns to the tank so there’s no waste cup to empty, or salinity changes. Cons would be the noise it makes while testing, but that could be mitigated by having it in your tanks cabinet.
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does the Kh reading replace the pH reading? I have a reefkeeper lite so am very interested in getting this to work
 
Have you considered an auto-water-exchange setup instead?
By replacing a lot of water semi-continously, it really stabilizes Alk/Ca plus all the other things you do not test.
Not all that hard to set up, but does take a lot of space somewhere for the water storage.

Can you make sump larger?
The sheer extra volumne will help stabilize things.

I know some people have built a nice cabinet/table next to their display tank, with a cheap plastic tank inside.
Can work for water change or external sump.

Beyond that, I am really surprised you need to test/tweak daily.
How tight of a range are your trying to hit?

Have you checked magnesium?
Sometimes when that is low, Alk/Ca can fluctuate due to precipitation.
 
Adit0 said:
does the Kh reading replace the pH reading? I have a reefkeeper lite so am very interested in getting this to work
Click to expand...
If you don’t have an additional bnc port available beyond the pH and temp, yeah you can install it where the pH probe was. When you connect the khg to a bnc you will do a regular probe calibration, but will be sending a fake signal from the khg to spoof 7 and 10. Then once calibrated the khg will continually be sending your alk reading to the controller.

So the value will only change at the same cadence as you test. I have the adapter to do this, but disconnected it because I extract the alk reading from the khg with an api from apples shortcut app
 
I use the Trident and like how simple it is. That said, I've had a few experiences where a test will fail (usually test A) and it doesn't tell you why, you have to figure it out for yourself. Sometimes it is because the testing agent is low, other times... well I don't really know.

The Trident runs tests a lot. Like 4 times a day at minimum, which is a bit overkill for me. I want to look into a virtual plug and see if it can be turned off until it does a combined test once a day since right now I'm running it in manual mode and try to remember to test at the same time each day. I don't know if a virtual plug is a feasible option though. (Also, quick plug that I've got a six-month reagent pack I'm trying to give back to the club after a double order.) Anyways, I digest...
 
Testing daily for Alk is reasonable but not for Ca. They get used in predictable proportions so you should just check Alk and adjust the dose for both (and Mg if dosing that separately) proportionally. Occasionally check Ca, like every couple weeks or so since it can drift slowly. Alk test is also faster/easier.

I am using Trident because I’m Apex-committed, and it is good. I honestly don’t really care about the twice daily Ca and Mg readings, I’m just looking at Alk. But I do appreciate the frequent Alk readings, it has really helped my stability and fine-tuning. I’d be ok with a Unident if that was an option :)
 
There is a reason for the frequency in tests. The tubing used in the Trident has a very small ID. During our testing, it was shown that a less frequent testing schedule affected the results due to possible blockage caused by evaporation of the fluids in the lines.

As to testing Ca/Mg twice daily, Alk/Ca usage in calcification of corals has an accepted ratio. However, there are processes in the tanks that sometimes throw that ratio out of balance. For eg, my tank uses more Alk than Ca based on that ratio. If I were to dose 2 part (or adjust a CaRx) based on only Alk consumption, my Ca will steadily rise. I have seen other tanks that use more Ca than Alk as predicted by the ratio.

Right now, the Trident is the only tester that tests Ca and Mg in addition to Alk. So there is no comparison as to what effects of not testing Ca daily can show. Just like a few years ago when we were only testing Alk once a day (if that often) and deemed having the reading within 1dkh to be sufficient. There are other testers starting to come out that will test multiple parameters (Ca being 1).
 
I understand and sympathize with the engineering part of why it has to test Ca and Mg twice a day. I’m just saying it isn’t useful to the user to test that often. I do know that it doesn’t add value for me since I basically ignore the Ca and Mg results except for maybe a glance once every 1-2 weeks, which is how frequently I used to manually test Ca/Mg. When a Ca/Mg value is off by more than expected I assume a testing error anyway.

The frequent testing of Alk is a game-changer though, so overall I‘m still happy to have a Trident.
 
Big jumps in consumption can also be due to precipitation; just something to consider.

It can happen where your tank seems like it's consuming an insane amount of alk/ca.

Not something I'm super in tune with. I just know I had an issue a few years ago where my tank was consuming a rediculous amount for how stocked it was.

If you are into the equipment by all means go for it.

But would hate to see you not actually solve the underlying issue causing you to have to test constantly!
 
xCry0x said:
Big jumps in consumption can also be due to precipitation; just something to consider.

It can happen where your tank seems like it's consuming an insane amount of alk/ca.

Not something I'm super in tune with. I just know I had an issue a few years ago where my tank was consuming a rediculous amount for how stocked it was.

If you are into the equipment by all means go for it.

But would hate to see you not actually solve the underlying issue causing you to have to test constantly!
Click to expand...

if your Mg is low, this is more likely to happen.

Snails breeding and making babies can suck up alk/Ca too as the babies need it to make their shells.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Unless they did a change to the programming, the fewest tests you can do is 4 alk per day (every 6 hours) and 2 calcium & magnesium per day (every 12 hours)
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That is correct, I just set up my trident and it is good enough from what I can tell so far. I double check it against my Hanna checkers and they are close enough for me to trust them to be ballpark (kind of like everything in the hobby). I haven't given the reins to the trident/apex yet on dosing, as I wanted to have it prove itself for a couple months before I get fancy on a closed loop dosing system. I am a fan of the bubble magnus dosing pumps as you set ml/day and it spreads it out for you. That is as accurate as I have found I needed and I have been as high as 200 ml/day on ca and alk.
 
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