Guide: Lanthanum Chloride dosing for Phosphate control
- Thread starter derek_SR
- Start date
I recently started running a brs mini gfo reactor with Rowaphos on my 40gallon sps tank. Finally got things down under .09, I ranged.from .02-.05 last few tests.
I had liked lanth in only that you couid lock in the dose and keep whatever PO4 level you wanted-with GFO -it seemed effective and then maybe too low.. and a couple times nearly stripped them out…
With carbon dosing -could also keep PO4 stable -just not low enough..but based on Charles molar ratio theory -may just allow to float a bit higher and get the nitrates in that ratio..
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
I am not trying to defend the lanthanum usage, but I am also not super against it. But the number 11 should be ug/L, so actually not that crazy high, and potentially still acceptable, unless you have some of those rather sensitive tang types (e.g., acantharus type I believe).
It’s high enough to impact corals though-
PjFish
Supporting Member
My powder blue is very insensitive !
Supposedly it’s the yellow tangs that are sensitive.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Should not be at that level, and corals generally should not be impacted to at least 20 ug/L or potentially much higher.
If you are having issues with corals, it is most likely not due to the lanthanum showing on your ICP which are really tiny amounts measured here. 1 ug/L is only one millionth of a gram in one liter. If that significantly impacts your corals we would be in big trouble keeping them in general.
ICP showed up with some heavy metals too so I am sure that plays a role too. Hard to discern when there is more than variable at play. The heavy metals come from overdose on trace elements so that is easy to discern and remediate.
The fun never stops!
Agree w/ @Alexander1312 , I had extremely elevated lanthanum levels due to an accident and my corals were perfectly fine (I think it was like 250+ ug/l - so several orders of magnitude greater than your result). Everything was fine, actually, except my yellow tang died.
That being said, if you are seeing any lanthanum on your ICP *at all* it just means you're doing it wrong - and either your PO4 is too low, causing excess lanth to have nothing to bind to, so you're overdosing it OR it isn't getting filtered out properly.
That being said, if you are seeing any lanthanum on your ICP *at all* it just means you're doing it wrong - and either your PO4 is too low, causing excess lanth to have nothing to bind to, so you're overdosing it OR it isn't getting filtered out properly.
Either way -I am not going to spend time debugging it as there really isn’t a viable way of testing for it except with a lot of ICP tests.
All my fish are fine and corals are ok except the acros for now..
Back to other po4 reduction methods
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
That is the reason I do not prefer or would recommend LC as the tool of choice for phosphate removal. It can be easily misused and bad things (to fish) happen then.
Your tank is much smaller than Derek‘s tank and your skimmer might not be as powerful as his, so the likelihood to overdose it in a smaller tank is much higher, or rather your accuracy level needs to be higher. It is all math and playing around with your skimmer capabilities, but smaller tanks alwyas need greater precision, which is why they are often harder to manage.
The fact that you only see a small amount of LC means you are doing reasonably well in my opinion, but need to improve to not show any eventually, and definitely not go up. Cutting your dose in half or by 75% for now could be already an easy fix.
Also, I know several people with large and highly successful SPS tanks who dose (or used to do dose) LC, and some of them gave up on this because they felt it should not become a dependency. Ultimately, all phosphate removal methods have downsides, except adding more corals and removing fish (well that would be a downside too), and GFO might stress your coral even more depending how strong your trace element supplemental system is to offset its impact. Carbon dosing will suppress your PH, and depending on the method feed bad bacteria too, not only the good ones.
Lastly, I suggest you post your ICP result in your journal to look at what could have caused adverse impact on your acros. ICP provides this massive amount of data but most of what is shown is not necessarily important or impacting your tank in a visible way.
Your tank is much smaller than Derek‘s tank and your skimmer might not be as powerful as his, so the likelihood to overdose it in a smaller tank is much higher, or rather your accuracy level needs to be higher. It is all math and playing around with your skimmer capabilities, but smaller tanks alwyas need greater precision, which is why they are often harder to manage.
The fact that you only see a small amount of LC means you are doing reasonably well in my opinion, but need to improve to not show any eventually, and definitely not go up. Cutting your dose in half or by 75% for now could be already an easy fix.
Also, I know several people with large and highly successful SPS tanks who dose (or used to do dose) LC, and some of them gave up on this because they felt it should not become a dependency. Ultimately, all phosphate removal methods have downsides, except adding more corals and removing fish (well that would be a downside too), and GFO might stress your coral even more depending how strong your trace element supplemental system is to offset its impact. Carbon dosing will suppress your PH, and depending on the method feed bad bacteria too, not only the good ones.
Lastly, I suggest you post your ICP result in your journal to look at what could have caused adverse impact on your acros. ICP provides this massive amount of data but most of what is shown is not necessarily important or impacting your tank in a visible way.
Thales
Past President
Almost all problems I see with folks doing lanth is too much. Start really diluted, at a really slow rate and then use the phosphate results to tweak. Sneak up on it from the zero side.
@Thales -what would be your recommended starting dose? I had started 40:1 -perhaps it needs to be even more diluted?
Ironically when I think about it I had actual split the doses over a 24 hr period -the amt in the ICP was around two. But at some point I also really changed the feeding schedule to 12-6 pm from 8 to 8. So anyway..
It is possible to come back to this in the future -but I def need to reassess.
@Alexander1312 may have a point about larger skimmers and systems being more effective in pulling it out.
Also I can upload the ICP but in short I can tie all the heavy metals to the use of chaetogro. Although I had used 1/2 recommended dose -really put the metal to the petal where dosing with TM’s trace elements did not.
I really dislike GFO. Carbon dosing worked fine just the PH damping effect is problematic for the moment. Will figure it out in good time.
Alexander1312
Supporting Member
Should be 1:50. Also, something that has not been discussed here, but the best way to use LC is in combination with GFO in a media reactor. Added immediately before the intake. Increases GFO power seven times without detectable LC in the water (Armin Glaser).
Re ChaetoGro - oh boy, not a fan of brute force methods. I know this will trigger folks so will stop here
.
tribbitt
Supporting Member
What makes chaetogro a brute force method in your opinion
Should be 1:50. Also, something that has not been discussed here, but the best way to use LC is in combination with GFO in a media reactor. Added immediately before the intake. Increases GFO power seven times without detectable LC in the water (Armin Glaser).
View attachment 74155
Re ChaetoGro - oh boy, not a fan of brute force methods. I know this will trigger folks so will stop here
Interesting combo -makes sense -
As for chaetogro-says a lot about what chaeto actually does to trace elements given its..concentrations..
Thales
Past President
I use a 28% TREO solution. For my 450 total water volume, I started with 30 ml in 3000 ml DI water, and started dosing that 40 ml over 24 hours directly into the skimmer, and bumped it up until I saw the phosphate start to come down.
Thales
Past President
Can you link me to this please? Thanks.Should be 1:50. Also, something that has not been discussed here, but the best way to use LC is in combination with GFO in a media reactor. Added immediately before the intake. Increases GFO power seven times without detectable LC in the water (Armin Glaser).
View attachment 74155
Re ChaetoGro - oh boy, not a fan of brute force methods. I know this will trigger folks so will stop here
Thanks-by what you posted -I am dosing about 22x more than that!
So how much are you dosing now?
And what was PO4 starting point & current?
Maybe I will reboot lanth but I want to see it basically gone from the system before I do so.