got ethical husbandry?

How much to feed fish? Do we tend to overfeed our pets? Easy to feed a lot, difficult to feed the right amount

Fortunately for mr, I’m not as analytical some
But in general and from my experience what I see people don’t understand the amount of energy fish spend swimming around and in place. And they don’t offer enough often enough of a varied diet.
“Uhhh yeah, I’ve got a pellet and frozen mysis and I alternate them” just ain’t cutting it!
There are past posts where I have shared my feed menu
Nothing has everything, but everything does!
 
Does what your fish eat in two minutes not apply? I also saw something about their stomach being the size of their eyeballs to estimate how much to feed?

You mentioned weight and body %based feeding prob has potential just seems a little impractical long term like i don't see myself weighing fish food before feeding them or weighing the fish to make it really accurate.
It is my understanding that this is the approach from professional fish farms translated to our hobby and I assume fish farms want their fish well fed and healthy too.

I am not sure if it is impractical really. Seems rather easy to weigh food. The auto feeder can be calibrated once to consistently feed the amount I want. Weighing frozen food is easy too.
 
I think you can feed a fish in a tank too much. It is not like it is out in the wild where it is constantly working for its food, hustling away from predators, etc. and in need of that many calories.

A fat fish is not necessarily a healthy fish.
I tend to agree in general. Although I do not know if a fish can actually overeat. I lean towards a maybe. My father in law has a trout farm, and there are concerns with fish eating too much, but need to check. I think it is more a waste, vs negative impact to the fish, which makes me believe there is a sweet spot to feed the fish adequately and do not pollute the water too much in which the fish actually has to swim in.
 
Fortunately for mr, I’m not as analytical some
But in general and from my experience what I see people don’t understand the amount of energy fish spend swimming around and in place. And they don’t offer enough often enough of a varied diet.
“Uhhh yeah, I’ve got a pellet and frozen mysis and I alternate them” just ain’t cutting it!
There are past posts where I have shared my feed menu
Nothing has everything, but everything does!
I am really curious who you see not feeding enough. I feel it’s mostly the opposite.

The variety piece is interesting. Paul Baldessano who is as passionate about fish as you are thinks a fish can live very happy and healthy on the same food for decades, demonstrated through regular spawning etc.

Still, I tend to support the variety argument, but I also believe that pellet food has much evolved in the past few years, and some provider have excellent varied ingredients. So it is not as one dimensional nutrient wise as it could appear. I have 6 different types of pellets in my auto feeder mixed, but I am not convinced it has to be.

Also, LRS frozen food is a good alternative for those who do not want to prepare their own food.

I do not consider brine shrimp an adequate food source.
 
Paul Baldessano who is as passionate about fish as you are thinks a fish can live very happy and healthy on the same food for decades, demonstrated through regular spawning etc.
I don't have too much input here, but spawning cannot be a reliable indicator of "happy and healthy". I've seen some very consistently-spawning clowns in minuscule containers. Sanjay Joshi, at least at one point, had several pairs of clowns in his overflow alone, each with maybe a gallon of water, which bred regularly.

I need to ask one of my angelfish keeping friends about this. He went deep into the fish nutrition rabbit hole
 
While not the main point here, I just want to address the concern that I do not feed my fish properly.

This is their current diet:

- 3 x daily 40 secs high quality pellet food each 2 hours apart with AVAST auto feeder
- 1 x daily frozen food LRS various types
- 2 nori sheets daily
- several larger dandelion leaves daily


This is a complex issue. Reducing it to a recipe is a good rule of thumb to get going, but all fish and tanks are different, the amount of food to keep fish healthy going into a low flow tank for fish will be different than a high flow tank. Also, different fish need food at different amounts (and often different foods). The recipe eventually can get reefers into trouble because it has nothing to do with the actuality of living in your tank.
The starting body weight/compisition matters, and that matters for folks that say somtimes they don't feed their fish for a week or two. What they snack on in the tank also matters, as does the amount of exercise the fish get from flow or flow changes.

Fish can over eat.
You also need to think about how much of your fish food is for corals.

I get skinny fish in the lab tanks when I don't pay enough attention for various reasons or the auto feeders have clogged. Its not great, and I fix it when I see it.

I aim to have autofeeders on all my tanks for the fish that don't need frozen. In there I put coral foods, pellets, and flake (I love a good flake food, and the NPS can catch the flakes). I feed frozen intermittently. I would like to be feed it evey other day, or every third day.

There is no way I can give you direction on animals I have not seen. If the fish are thin, feed more, if they are too fat, feed less. I think chasing numbers is generally not good, but worse when making feeding choices - you don't stop feed the baby less because you don't like changing diapers. :)
 
This is a complex issue. Reducing it to a recipe is a good rule of thumb to get going, but all fish and tanks are different, the amount of food to keep fish healthy going into a low flow tank for fish will be different than a high flow tank. Also, different fish need food at different amounts (and often different foods). The recipe eventually can get reefers into trouble because it has nothing to do with the actuality of living in your tank.
The starting body weight/compisition matters, and that matters for folks that say somtimes they don't feed their fish for a week or two. What they snack on in the tank also matters, as does the amount of exercise the fish get from flow or flow changes.

Fish can over eat.
You also need to think about how much of your fish food is for corals.

I get skinny fish in the lab tanks when I don't pay enough attention for various reasons or the auto feeders have clogged. Its not great, and I fix it when I see it.

I aim to have autofeeders on all my tanks for the fish that don't need frozen. In there I put coral foods, pellets, and flake (I love a good flake food, and the NPS can catch the flakes). I feed frozen intermittently. I would like to be feed it evey other day, or every third day.

There is no way I can give you direction on animals I have not seen. If the fish are thin, feed more, if they are too fat, feed less. I think chasing numbers is generally not good, but worse when making feeding choices - you don't stop feed the baby less because you don't like changing diapers. :)
I am available to come comment on your fish “thickness”.
And damn, you’re late to tell me not to feed less to conserve on diapers…

Fish should not look like runway models…where you can see bones
They should be convex in shape, like “()”
 
I don't have too much input here, but spawning cannot be a reliable indicator of "happy and healthy". I've seen some very consistently-spawning clowns in minuscule containers. Sanjay Joshi, at least at one point, had several pairs of clowns in his overflow alone, each with maybe a gallon of water, which bred regularly.

I need to ask one of my angelfish keeping friends about this. He went deep into the fish nutrition rabbit hole
Interesting point. But I have to admit that referring to spawning clowns in a 400 gallon tank overflow not necessarily being a sign of happiness seems harder for me to relate to :).

Also, if this is not a sign of optimal fish health, curious what is?

Lastly, just wanted to emphasize that I am in camp food variety, but it might be overrated to an extent, except the fact that some fish have specific dietary requirements that need to be considered, in some cases extremely difficult to meet requirements.

The thought I had was if a moorish idol, e.g., would be totally happy with the same type of (unlimited supply of) sponges (and some algae) over a variety of other food which does not match their natural preference.
 
This is a complex issue. Reducing it to a recipe is a good rule of thumb to get going, but all fish and tanks are different, the amount of food to keep fish healthy going into a low flow tank for fish will be different than a high flow tank. Also, different fish need food at different amounts (and often different foods). The recipe eventually can get reefers into trouble because it has nothing to do with the actuality of living in your tank.
I agree that there is probably not a formula to get it 100% accurate. My thoughts were more around defining a baseline to determine if one is far off, i.e., significantly over or under that baseline, to put some light on this more nebulous topic of fish feeding.

Being under the baseline seems easier to determine than over, as the fish would get visibly too skinny I assume. I also assume this is what you are referring to get reefers into trouble, by under feeding the fish as a result of following a potentially insufficient food supply calculation.

Being over a baseline the more difficult part, hence posing the question on a complex and apparantly emotional topic :).

I had in my brief write up that different fish might need different amounts, i.e., Anthias and Tangs might need 50% more food than some other ‘less active’ swimmers (3% vs 2% of the body weight).

What I did not include was the food composition, protein content, fat, fiber. This would also be different by fish type, e.g., lower protein and higher fiber needs for tangs, higher protein and lower fiber needs for anthias.

I wonder if insufficient quantity is really the issue or rather quality. So feeding what the fish needs vs feeding a ton of food appears to be more important. You could feed a lot but not the right things (different from variety).

High flow vs low flow was not on my radar, thank you for bringing this up. So a high flow tank would need more food in your opinion, correct? Interesting to think about what constitutes a high flow tank, but probably an SPS vs softie tank would be the broad categorization.

The starting body weight/compisition matters, and that matters for folks that say somtimes they don't feed their fish for a week or two. What they snack on in the tank also matters, as does the amount of exercise the fish get from flow or flow changes.
Have not heard someone saying they do not feed their fish for an extended period, and would not be supportive of this either.

Fish can over eat.
Thank you - I was not sure. But from all the comments, I do not see this mentioned as a broad concern. So how is this risk being addressed? In my case, I do believe I have fish that overeat.

You also need to think about how much of your fish food is for corals.
Can you elaborate why this matters? Or is this simply saying that coral food added to fish food does not count, which seems logical. And is fish food not mostly coral food? I feed corals separately a couple of times per week.

I get skinny fish in the lab tanks when I don't pay enough attention for various reasons or the auto feeders have clogged. Its not great, and I fix it when I see it.

I aim to have autofeeders on all my tanks for the fish that don't need frozen. In there I put coral foods, pellets, and flake (I love a good flake food, and the NPS can catch the flakes). I feed frozen intermittently. I would like to be feed it evey other day, or every third day.
Some interesting nuggets in here: There are some fish that do not need frozen food? Can you provide an example? Or which fish need frozen food? And those that do need frozen food, why is it ok to only feed them every 3 days?

Also, I think there is good (quality) flake food as you say - but I did not know that the NPS benefit from them.

There is no way I can give you direction on animals I have not seen. If the fish are thin, feed more, if they are too fat, feed less.
As I said in the title, feeding more is easy, feeding less (or rather an adquate amount) seems harder to do unless all fish appear trending in the same direction. Relying on fish shape only seems to simplify this topic too much but the majority seems to gravitate to this.

I think chasing numbers is generally not good, but worse when making feeding choices - you don't stop feed the baby less because you don't like changing diapers. :)
I know you think that way, and there is no real argument against this. But ignoring numbers feels equally uninformed these days, and makes it harder for others to enter the hobby who cannot rely on 'gut' instinct and anecdotal guidance.

Re the diaper analogy - I am not sure if there is really no value in not letting the fish swim in highly polluted/high nitrate (and phosphate) water. But those with high nutrients will probably argue against that :).

I sincerely appreciate all your insight!
 
I can honestly say that we overfeed our reef tank, and possibly under feed our fresh water tanks.

The glow fish tank, male beta fish, and female harem tank each get fed once a day. And these guys are all very healthy looking

Our 30 and 90 get fed almost 5 times a day...
The 30 has an auto feeder that drops the absolute minimum of TDO extra small twice a day 7am, and 3pm
The 90 has two auto feeders, one on each end of the tank to prevent fish fighting. It is set exactly the same as the 30, bare minimum, twice a day at 7 and 3.

Each morning my wife prepares the food for the day. 1 cube Hikari Mysis shrimp, 1 cube Hikari Brine Shrimp, 1 chunk of LRS Reef Frenzy, and 1 glove of garlic.
The 30 is easy to feed. With only 5 fish in the tank now we only feed them what they can eat in a minute. And they usually eat it all in about 30 seconds. Ounce they finished we give them one more drop.
The 90 is harder, some of the fish are more aggressive eaters than the others. So the wife will drop a teaspoon of food split in half. Half at one end Half at the other end. And so far everyone gets food with this method.
The mix is given to the tanks at 9am, 12pm, and 5pm

We also feed one algae wafer a day, the Tomini, Fox Face, and one of the wrasses will snack on it all day and night. Also all of our rocks are spotless, and hair algae has not been an issue despite our Nitrates and Phosphates hovering around .3. I am sure the Tomini and FF are keeping things clean.

We also have a good supply of copepods in the tank and are currently feeding the tank phyto plankton. I have one more week of dally phyto then I can go to once a week... At least thats what Algae Barn says.

As for fish.... Our 30 looks very healthy, is there such thing as an obese fish? I mean our clowns don't look like puffer fish :p but they aren't thin. As for our 90, the fish are starting to look healthy.... after our little incident I think the tank is on the rebound. *knock on wood*
 
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