Tank Parameters all over the place

[Darkxerox]

The LC50 for nitrate in some literature is >500ppm, but varies from species to species. However the old guidance I learned from people was don't exceed 300ppm for FOWLR and 100ppm for most sensitive corals. I don't know the lethal levels for phosphate.

So you should dilute your samples with fresh saltwater and get accurate readings so you know if it's going up or down and if you need to consider a sulfur denitrator.

 

[spuri87]

The LC50 for nitrate in some literature is >500ppm, but varies from species to species. However the old guidance I learned from people was don't exceed 300ppm for FOWLR and 100ppm for most sensitive corals. I don't know the lethal levels for phosphate.

So you should dilute your samples with fresh saltwater and get accurate readings so you know if it's going up or down and if you need to consider a sulfur denitrator.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.. my apologies, I am a sucker for logic behind everything and these links help feed my mind

 

[tribbitt]

First order of business is to test! Dilute and test until you get a value within range, and then multiply it by however much you diluted
If API nitrate test went red very quickly (within a few seconds of shaking), then it's likely much higher.

I wanted to stay a fish guy until I saw some of the awesome tanks from fellow reefers and now I want more from this hobby.. In your honest opinion, Is that even possible with so many fish in a young tank with the short and long term goals I stated yesterday or am I aiming for the stars and I should just stay FOWLR (maybe some softies and few LPS)?

I think your tank is just overstocked. When you do that, you create problems that now have to be solved. I think you should take a step at a time; right now the focus is just to add nutrient controls and supervise the tank as levels drop to your intended range. Regardless of your destination I imagine it's probably going to be helpful to have nutrients in check.

 

[Slingfox]

Not expecting 1 water change to magically reduce everything, but I like to track something so that I can go back and check what I did and if I could have done anything better, so documenting the numbers in this thread:

03/31 (1:30 PM) : About 20 hours after 1st 20% Water change (~40 gal) + 125g Rowaphos:-

• pH: 8.0
• Alk: 8.3 (expectedly up from 7.7 in the initial reading since I used Red Sea Coral prod Salt with higher Alk)
• phosphates > .6ppm (Hanna Phosphorous ULR shows 200 ppb which is the maximum it can show, which roughly translates to 0.6 ppm phosphates)
• Nitrates > 75ppm max value on Hanna checker.. I also had an API kit and wanted to check if it gives me some idea on the actual number.. it showed BLOOD RED lol.. maybe nitrates are way over 200ppm going by this picture

View attachment 78520

You can get a more accurate measurement of your phosphates and nitrates by diluting the tank water in some RODI or fresh saltwater which you have confirmed have zero nitrates and phosphates. If you dilute 1 part tank water to 1 part fresh saltwater then you can multiply the final result by two. You may need to dilute 1:3 and then multiply the final result by 4.

Note also that with your tank volume and fish load I don’t think in the long run you need to go to extreme measures to keep nutrients under control. I believe that is going on right now is a combination of stocking your tank with rocks with very elevated phosphates + too heavy handed feeding + insufficient nutrient export.

Unless you are willing to remove all the rock (you can do it one section at a time) and treat it outside the tank with LC, it may take months or a year or more for phosphates to stabilize. That is no big deal since people can grow some types of coral at very high phosphate and nitrate levels. You should also look into getting a RedSea Reefmat 1200—it would also help bring nutrients down if you are not changing your filter socks regularly.

 

[spuri87]

You can get a more accurate measurement of your phosphates and nitrates by diluting the tank water in some RODI or fresh saltwater which you have confirmed have zero nitrates and phosphates. If you dilute 1 part tank water to 1 part fresh saltwater then you can multiply the final result by two. You may need to dilute 1:3 and then multiply the final result by 4.

Note also that with your tank volume and fish load I don’t think in the long run you need to go to extreme measures to keep nutrients under control. I believe that is going on right now is a combination of stocking your tank with rocks with very elevated phosphates + too heavy handed feeding + insufficient nutrient export.

Unless you are willing to remove all the rock (you can do it one section at a time) and treat it outside the tank with LC, it may take months or a year or more for phosphates to stabilize. That is no big deal since people can grow some types of coral at very high phosphate and nitrate levels. You should also look into getting a RedSea Reefmat 1200—it would also help bring nutrients down if you are not changing your filter socks regularly.

Thank you for the guidance on how to measure with diluted water.. I will try that next.. appreciate you sharing your experiences.. I do have Red Sea reefmat 1200 sitting in my garage.. I am just awful with plumbing so not collecting the courage to install it in my tank yet since it apparently isn’t straight forward install with waterbox tanks

 

[Kensington Reefer]

IMHO
Reef mat….totally unnecessary

 

[Slingfox]

IMHO
Reef mat….totally unnecessary

Much of the equipment in most hobbies whether it is gardening, hydroponics, biking, golf, etc. is unnecessary. The reefing hobby is no different. In fact, the entire hobby itself is “unnecessary”.

A filter roller is pretty much an automated filter sock. Even filter socks are unnecessary but so are protein skimmers, media reactors, refugiums, turf scrubbers, ozone generators, nitrate reactors, aquarium controllers, automated testers, ATO systems, and dosing pumps since everything those systems accomplish can be done by hand, via other means, or are not “needed” to keep livestock alive.

Automated water change systems are “unnecessary”, but I would never discourage anyone from installing one since they make maintenance easier. Nothing wrong with using technology to make one’s reefing life easier.

 

[Kensington Reefer]

Much of the equipment in most hobbies whether it is gardening, hydroponics, biking, golf, etc. is unnecessary. The reefing hobby is no different. A filter roller is pretty much an automated filter sock. Even filter socks are unnecessary but so are ATO systems and dosing pumps since everything those workflows do can also be done by hand as well. Even automated water change systems are “unnecessary” but I would never discourage anyone from installing one since they make maintenance easier. Nothing wrong with using technology to make one’s reefing life easier.

Agreed
Just another tool to be maintained for proper function
But also a possible point of failure

 

[Slingfox]

Agreed
Just another tool to be maintained for proper function
But also a possible point of failure

I did have to replace the motor on my RedSea Reefmat 1200 after two years of operation. Unfortunately, this seems to be a not uncommon issue with the first batch of Reefmats which were sold (ie, they use the same motor on the larger Reefmat as the medium sized model). I am not sure if RedSea has resolved the underlying issue but I would still recommend the Reefmat even if it requires motor replacement every 2 years. Luckily, when the Reefmat fails all that happens is the tank water flows out of an overflow opening and is not filtered.

The motor replacement was easy to do since RedSea has a video on it.

 

[Royce023]

Sharing a video I watched years ago that everyone should watch or re-watch.

 

[spuri87]

04/06 (4:30 PM) : About a day after 2nd 20% Water change (~40 gal) + 3 days of dosing 2ml LC directly in the skimmer:

As suggested by few BAR members in the thread, mid last week, I diluted the water 1 tank water : 3 fresh salt water and re-tested the params.. Phosphorous still showed at 200, which meant I was at least at 2.44 ppm phosphates. Nitrates were at 68 ppm (after multiplying the number by 4 due to dilution).. To counter the phosphates, in addition to planned water changes, I decided to add Lanthanum Chloride at less than half the recommended dose in my skimmer.. I have been dosing 2ml LC for last 3 days now.. yesterday I did another 20% (40g) water change.

I got the high range phosphates checker from @MichaelB (thanks much!) and re-tested the tank params today:

• pH: 8.0
• Alk: 8.6
• phosphates 1.85 ppm
• Nitrates > 69 ppm

Seeing the numbers within Hanna tester's range was definitely a relief hahaha.. and good to know the actual numbers so that I know what I am fighting against.. I also added the seeded polyp block today (DBTC) after conversation with @Darkxerox last week which was really insightful

Michael also was gracious enough to give me Sicce 1.5 silent pump that I plan to use to install the reactor for running Rowaphos (Carbon Rox 0.8 still goes in a pouch in the overflow section of the tank)

 

[MichaelB]

04/06 (4:30 PM) : About a day after 2nd 20% Water change (~40 gal) + 3 days of dosing 2ml LC directly in the skimmer:

As suggested by few BAR members in the thread, mid last week, I diluted the water 1 tank water : 3 fresh salt water and re-tested the params.. Phosphorous still showed at 200, which meant I was at least at 2.44 ppm phosphates. Nitrates were at 68 ppm (after multiplying the number by 4 due to dilution).. To counter the phosphates, in addition to planned water changes, I decided to add Lanthanum Chloride at less than half the recommended dose in my skimmer.. I have been dosing 2ml LC for last 3 days now.. yesterday I did another 20% (40g) water change.

I got the high range phosphates checker from @MichaelB (thanks much!) and re-tested the tank params today:

• pH: 8.0
• Alk: 8.6
• phosphates 1.85 ppm
• Nitrates > 69 ppm

Seeing the numbers within Hanna tester's range was definitely a relief hahaha.. and good to know the actual numbers so that I know what I am fighting against.. I also added the seeded polyp block today (DBTC) after conversation with @Darkxerox last week which was really insightful

Michael also was gracious enough to give me Sicce 1.5 silent pump that I plan to use to install the reactor for running Rowaphos (Carbon Rox 0.8 still goes in a pouch in the overflow section of the tank)

Don't use that and lanthanum at the same time whatever you do. When you start the reactor stop lanthanum.

It would likely crash your tank at the worse all the way up to getting you dinos.

You want to measure/ control your feeding. Not saying feed less more feed a constant amount not random. Than get to where you see a downward trend in po4 over time. And continue with the water changes.

Just keep with a routine and things will all work out. I definitely recommend grabbing more test reagents so you can test somewhat frequently. 1 time a day before feeding tank. So you can establish that trend that will be super helpful.

 

[spuri87]

Don't use that and lanthanum at the same time whatever you do. When you start the reactor stop lanthanum.

It would likely crash your tank at the worse all the way up to getting you dinos.

Are you suggesting not to use LC and Rowaphos together? Rowaphos is still in my system (in a bag right now instead of the reactor).. I just did a quick chat with GPT and it said its ok to use both concurrently, can you please elaborate on above comment?

Just keep with a routine and things will all work out. I definitely recommend grabbing more test reagents so you can test somewhat frequently. 1 time a day before feeding tank. So you can establish that trend that will be super helpful.

will buy more reagents, thanks for the tester.

 

[Alexander1312]

Are you suggesting not to use LC and Rowaphos together? Rowaphos is still in my system (in a bag right now instead of the reactor).. I just did a quick chat with GPT and it said its ok to use both concurrently, can you please elaborate on above comment?


will buy more reagents, thanks for the tester.

In a nutshell, the concern is to lower PO4 very slowly as it otherwise stresses your corals too much. Applying too many methods simultaneously might create a too sudden drop, specifically if misusing LC, which tends to be powerful unless diluted significantly.

Just to confirm, your PO4 was 2.44? Which Hanna tester did you use? Picture?

 

[spuri87]

In a nutshell, the concern is to lower PO4 very slowly as it otherwise stresses your corals too much. Applying too many methods simultaneously might create a too sudden drop, specifically if misusing LC, which tends to be powerful unless diluted significantly.

Understood, yeah that makes sense.. If the numbers are error free than I might have already caused a big sudden drop (from over 2.44 to 1.85 currently in 3 days).. Will stay away from Rowaphos in this case, want to keep using LC for sometime at least until the situation gets better

Just to confirm, your PO4 was 2.44? Which Hanna tester did you use? Picture?

I have Hanna Phosphorous ULR with a max of 200ppb (which is equivalent to 0.61 ppm phosphates).. when I diluted in 1:3 ratio, I still saw 200ppb on the Hanna checker which means I had .61*4 =2.44 ppm phosphates in my system.. I got phosphates checker from Michael today which has max value of 2.5 and it showed 1.85 today

 

[MichaelB]

Are you suggesting not to use LC and Rowaphos together? Rowaphos is still in my system (in a bag right now instead of the reactor).. I just did a quick chat with GPT and it said its ok to use both concurrently, can you please elaborate on above comment?


will buy more reagents, thanks for the tester.

A reactor is 10x maybe 20× more efficient than Rowaphos in a bag. It's a major difference.

Using it in a bag with your size tank and bioload isn't having much of a effect. It couldn't have one that would be actually noticeable.

A reactor given time is capable of cycling the entire tanks water. The bag only catches a small portion of the water flowing through it.

A reactor won't cycles the water as fast as your return pump by any means. So expecting the ratings of the Sicce syncra 1.5 rated at 357 gph. Of course you won't actually cycle that much water in a hour going through a reactor. Maybe just over half of that is likely.

So expect that reactor to be capable of cycling all the water in your tank roughly every hour or so. Now compare that to the trickle of water that passes through a bag of Rowaphos. It can't compare.

With your po4 so high it will likely deplete the Rowaphos quickly maybe under 2 weeks.

You know it's depleted when instead of your numbers going down they start to climb back up. You have to test to know this....

*Feeding or measuring what you feed is important not to introduce variables to the test results.

* constant not random water changes are another variable you want to control.

In my system that's Po4 is stable I change Rowaphos every 3 months as a example.

Using both of them can drastically drop your p04 shocking your tank. You want to do this over time. Like you did with hyposalinty.

That's why I caution not using both. If later you want to slowly add Lanthanum back it's fine. Just not day one if I'm making some sense.

Identify the rate of decrease the reactor will have. It will definitely work just remember higher numbers need to change it more. Numbers go down with controlled feeding. They start climbing swap Rowaphos. They should decline again. When you get to where you want the po4 to be. You restrict the flow little by little thats allowed to pass through the reactor until you get to the right setting where it holds steady.

To control flow (rate in which water passes through the reactor) in reactor it's that little cut off switch on one of the reactor lines.

 

[newfly]

The controllers are a serious investment but once you have it locked in- makes such a difference day to day and weekly operations.

Hey, I have an Alkatronic for sale!

 

[Alexander1312]

I have Hanna Phosphorous ULR with a max of 200ppb (which is equivalent to 0.61 ppm phosphates).. when I diluted in 1:3 ratio, I still saw 200ppb on the Hanna checker which means I had .61*4 =2.44 ppm phosphates in my system.. I got phosphates checker from Michael today which has max value of 2.5 and it showed 1.85 today

That’s a lot of phosphate. Where did you get your rocks from? Do you have a picture of your skimmer in action?

 

[spuri87]

Thanks Michael for the detailed write up.. makes complete sense to me.. I will not replace rowaphos until I am using LC, will install the reactor once I am at a manageable number.

That’s a lot of phosphate. Where did you get your rocks from? Do you have a picture of your skimmer in action?

Yeah I had 0.45 ppm phosphates on day 1 I setup the tank.. got seeded rocks from Clearwater though they really did help me cycle faster (I was ready within 2 weeks), but Guess everything has a trade off

I will share a picture of the skimmer tomorrow

 

[Alexander1312]

Thanks Michael for the detailed write up.. makes complete sense to me.. I will not replace rowaphos until I am using LC, will install the reactor once I am at a manageable number.


Yeah I had 0.45 ppm phosphates on day 1 I setup the tank.. got seeded rocks from Clearwater though they really did help me cycle faster (I was ready within 2 weeks), but Guess everything has a trade off

I will share a picture of the skimmer tomorrow

I see, a lesson learned of being extra careful when using used aka cycled dead rock. You get your tank started right away but fight lots of issues later. And you have not done an ICP test yet, lets see what else leaches out of these rocks.

In all honesty, an easier and potentially cheaper way would be to replace all the rocks.