Cali Kid Corals

Specifically, which corals like nutrient rich water?

I do not understand what this means " the zooxanthellae does most of the work for the corals nutrients."

From my understanding nutrients can only be used via Photosynthesis via zooxanthellae.
They are processing the light and turning it into energy for the coral. That is my understanding between their relationship. An interesting topic was corals expelling excess zooxanthellae due to the coral having an excess in their tissue. Too much light? Too many nutrients? Both? I honestly don't know. It just makes me curious about the difference in positions and logic which is why I brought it up.

I dunno, is he right? If I tell you there's a leprechaun living in the center of the sun, can you prove me wrong?
I can prove it. I've swam every corner of the ocean. And I know who built the pyramids too!

Joking aside, I get your point. I also think you're missing my point. Anecdotes and ideas churn the gears that lead to testing, research, and innovation. It was just a different opinion. Had it come from someone you respect, would your position be different?
I know from my own personal tank I used to run crazy PAR (800+ for 12+ hours) and had insanely high nutrients - things were great, growing great, beautiful tank. Does that make him wrong? Does Chris have a scientific paper that supports his claims, or just anecdote?
Tidal pools with exposed corals or under very few inches of water getting insane light with pristine water parameters we could never replicate. There are enough scientific papers on ocean water parameters that get published round the clock to point to. I think our corals are amazing at adapting to our individual tanks. So if I tried to replicate your scenario, I may find completely different outcomes.

Because my anecdote is different. There are experienced, successful growers of corals that have complete opposite viewpoints to Chris and think he's an idiot. Are they right?
And I'm sure like you mentioned, I'm certain he probably thinks they are idiots in their madness. LOL
Re: Halides there are FAR, far more people with successful coral farms that are NOT using Halides than those that are.
I agree. It's an older tech and yet, LEDs cannot replicate a full spectrum. Only the appearance of one. So he's actually right in that regard. Metal halides with UV-a and UV-b specific applications are necessary for proper metabolic processes for reptiles as an example. Full spectrum bulb with the added benefit of heat. Cannot be (or has not been) replicated with LEDs to my knowledge.
Does that make Chris wrong? Maybe all kinds of lights work just fine, and the specific application is what matters? There are also people that live and die by T5s, and Radions. Some of the most beautiful tanks that exist in the hobby use LED lighting. So how can anyone say halides are "the best"?
I think the same way you're standing firm on LEDs. I think some corals look hideous under full spectrum, led or halides. But start adding some violets and deep blues and all of a sudden we get crazy pops of color. I love leds! I have T5s over a tank of sticks right now... and I'm not too crazy about the spectrum for viewing. BUT, they seem to be ok. PAR is lacking tbh, so I need to add some LEDs. ;)

I think 99% of the information out there is false, or at the very least not the full picture. There are examples of successful tanks that break nearly every dogmatic "rule" that exists in the hobby. So unless there's a scientific, peer-reviewed paper on the subject it's basically just anecdote and there are far too many variables not shared or not known or not understood to make many conclusions based on simple anecdotes.
Yup. I agree. I don't believe we will ever be able to get anywhere near what is occurring on a reef. We can certainly try... but I believe that is a foolish dream.

IMO, it's great to try new things and consider other approaches to how we do things. It forces us to challenge our logic. Up until recently, you seemed quite firm on your stance of dosing kalk, if I remember correctly. Something in your logic shifted and now looking to change lanes. Why? Anecdotes observed by you or others? Or peer reviewed science that clearly points/indicates long term negative effects of kalk usage? I am in the same boat btw. Do I start dosing kalk because it's easier and economical for one of my new systems? Or do I try something completely new (to me) to test it out and get a firmer grasp on reefing with a different method?
 
Corals definitely eat foods that fit in their mouth too, so I wouldn't say that is the only way to get nutrients. Or do you mean used up after acquiring the nutrients? Maybe, I don't know coral physiology well enough there.
By nutrients I mean primarily NPK, not particles in the water column.
 
Because @derek_SR can't sit still and likes messing with things.
Mostly this, and I am still dosing kalk BTW - just considering the next step (CarX).
IMO, it's great to try new things and consider other approaches to how we do things. It forces us to challenge our logic. Up until recently, you seemed quite firm on your stance of dosing kalk, if I remember correctly. Something in your logic shifted and now looking to change lanes. Why? Anecdotes observed by you or others? Or peer reviewed science that clearly points/indicates long term negative effects of kalk usage? I am in the same boat btw. Do I start dosing kalk because it's easier and economical for one of my new systems? Or do I try something completely new (to me) to test it out and get a firmer grasp on reefing with a different method?
I think we are saying mostly the same things. Very few of the decisions I make on my tank are supported by scientific papers (though some are - and I try to consume this knowledge and share it wherever relevant, there IS some sound science out there). They are made based on some combination of personal anecdote and observation, things I pick up from reefers I want to emulate (not Chris Meckley, but I take very seriously things that Dong, Jake, and some farmers say), and just plain hunch/curiosity.

Everything we do with our tanks is a leap of faith to some extent - part of my point is that there's no reason to listen to Chris specifically, just because his view is a little "different," when there are plenty of successful reefers supporting an entirely different view. You just kind of have to decide for yourself who is worth listening to based on what you know about the person, their tanks, and how it aligns with your own views of the hobby. Most of what Chris says doesn't really pass the sniff test(IMO), and he's a douchey guy to boot - so I choose to ignore him. Folks like Dong, Jake, and @Thales make a LOT of sense to me, have backgrounds in legitimately applicable scientific fields, and are cool/funny guys who run their tanks in ways that I try to emulate.

It's the same reason I pay a lot of attention to folks like @iani , @RandyC , @dandemeyere , @H2OPlayar - I have seen their incredible tanks, spent time with them, align with their approach to the hobby, and respect how they think about it. There are other people with beautiful, successful tanks that I don't align so closely with - doesn't mean they are doing something wrong, just on a different road.
 
I think we are saying mostly the same things.
Absolutely! I only mentioned Chris because it was indeed different to what we typically hear mentioned. It wasn't to imply he's my sole source of inspiration. LMAO

I do indeed enjoy all the wisdom shared by the gents you mentioned. It's always good to tune in to read what is being said, especially when it's far beyond my understanding of a reef tank. Playing and fine tuning things as I can with my limited experience is fun to me. Challenging...but fun!
 
It is very interesting how we do not ‘like’ Mr. Kalkwasser. It seems to be a lot because of his personality, lack of scientific backing or background, loud mouth, insistence on a light we do not like to run, and/or just not being in the good guy camp.

@ReyDeFarts, thank you for sharing other thoughts out there, even if they go against the mainstream line of thinking.

It makes no sense to me why we would not listen to Meckley. Are we not constantly referring to great-looking corals as a sign of success? Now we are saying some more successful people run their tanks and farms differently, so he must be wrong? It all seems to come back to who we ‘like’ and who we do not ‘like’. I have observed this more recently here and do not think this is a healthy trend.

There is a difference between listening to someone and following their advice. I agree; some stuff is hard to listen to (or to read, like this), and others sound better, but this does not determine the quality of what is being said. For the record, I do strongly support a friendlier tone, though (by the way, well done, Andy :)).

I apologize in advance for this controversial statement. After a short time in this hobby, I feel that everyone gives bad advice, but never intentionally.

Some provide sound advice, in some cases. So it is more important than ever to listen and collect ideas, evaluate why it is said, and determine if this is one of the rare good advice.

It does not matter if I align with someone or not, like or dislike someone, if it is outrageous against mainstream thinking, or if it aligns with 20-year-old proven practices or not. If it did matter, I would keep living in a bubble where my perspective just grows in height but not width.

So, what are the evaluation criteria for sound advice? That is more difficult IMO. Some quick and dirty leading questions and opposing thoughts:

(Big one) Can science support it? Counter: Do we understand all the science that plays out in a small glass container, all its contents, and their interactions, so that we can judge whether this is scientific or not?

Can this be observed in the ocean? Counter—Is the ocean truly the most meaningful benchmark, or is the ‘ocean’ an incomplete term in which we look at aspects in isolation due to a lack of knowledge?

What do their tanks look like? Counter - Fancy cameras, photo editing, short-term clean up, and prepped up their tank for good looks?

How long have they been doing this? Counter—how many mistakes were made along the way, and has the tank's content just adopted these practices?

What is their incentive in providing this advice? Counter—Does it matter if it shows results?

Are they hobbyists or pros? Counter - could it be more helpful to listen to a hobbyist than a pro, as the objectives and challenges to navigate are often very different and directly applicable?

Lots more questions and counters to bring up.

Coming back to Meckley. I am not a fan at all, but again, it does not matter. What are the big things he advocates, and what do I think about the quality of the advice?

Topic 1—Lights—MH / T5 old-school lighting is the best for corals. From what I have seen elsewhere, in public aquariums and the best tank in Europe (separate post), it is probably true that it is the best light. But it does not matter. I will not use it; it is impractical or unnecessary since the second-best is good enough with far fewer downsides. Still, if I could, I would probably use it.

Topic 2 - Kalkwasser - Best way to supplement the tank with significant elements and keep PH high. I know some folks believe that this advice he shared in hours and hours of YouTube videos has destroyed more tanks than anything else. I am worried about the precipitation concerns in a standard reef tank, and the artificial pushing of pH up, which makes me not use it. I also think that many people do not use it properly or are not being told about the downsides; therefore, it probably hurts so many more people than it helps. But no one talks about those who left the hobby because of misuse, only those who run their tank with it successfully. But his advice on keeping PH stable (ideally higher) seems reasonable. PH above 8.3, less so though. This has some nuggets, but his Kalkwasser praise could easily put me off.

Topic 3 - Importance of trace elements - I am most interested in his thoughts about this (despite my significant dislike for him). Ignoring the importance of trace elements for long-term health in corals or further improvement to bring the reefing to the next level is missing a key improvement in the hobby. Someone like me, who has not had time yet to spend a ton of time learning the names of corals, does not care about ultra corals or common corals as long as I like their looks or growth, and can grow many corals now relatively easily, early on in my reefing journey. I do not believe this would have been the case 10 years ago. The thought about some traces being much higher for better results is a trial-and-error endeavor, and he has all the opportunity to try and fail, so listening to his recommendations can be valuable. I might still not take action on it.

Topic 4 -1000 - tons of other ideas, such as the nutrient-related and many other (maybe crazy) thoughts. But he is a professional, has a large farm, with seemingly good-looking and growing corals, who does, all day, think about this and what is best for his business. How does his hands-on practical experience not carry weight compared to other people's experience, just because he does not have a PHD in this stuff? Is there a PHD that helps you being a better reefer?

So, I hope we keep a more open mind when someone brings up other thoughts and not just go down the same chain of thoughts that where brought up many times before (and do not conflate this discussion with broader discussions in the human medical field, where I am also in favor of 100% science back up).
 
@Alexander1312 you bring up many fantastic points! Truly enjoyed reading your response. You are not wrong about people giving bad advice with good intentions. I've done that in many areas in my life, not just reefing. When I do share, I attempt to incorporate what I have personally experienced/ observed and what I have read about other's successes.

I have learned a lot of things from you for example. You are not a famous internet personality (that I know of) or professional scientist (that I know of). Does that make you not worthy of considering your advice? But your approach is still valid. It encourages and challenges mainstream logic from what I have seen. I don't get annoyed by that. I get curious. Well, why do you think that way? How did you come to that conclusion?

Your perspective of kalk for example was one of the first negatives I can remember reading about. I haven't been doing this long. So I was going solely based on local recommendations and the countless positive posts and videos about it. The algorithms do a good job of keeping away the many international discussions about this antiquated methodology.

And I am still using Kalk btw on my IM50 (just refreshed it today), even though I know it is NOT the best method to accomplish what I want with that tank. Certainly "easy" to prepare and dose. But how do I get off it for that tank? Because stopping cold turkey is not a good option either from my understanding. I must admit, I have not researched that side of it.

A great nugget of wisdom and analogy about nutrients and trace elements that Dong mentioned is you can be hungry and ready to eat anything. Someone can offer you a filet mignon or poop. But they will also give you vitamins (traces) to eat after. So if you are only offered poop to eat but have some vitamins, you're still eating poop. He mentions when we are testing for NO³ or PO⁴, we don't know the quality of those parameters. At the end of the day, it's water full of literal crap (excess waste from multiple processes). The primary benefit to our corals is clean healthy water (ionically balanced). The traces don't matter as much if your water isn't well balanced. Funny enough... Meckley has said the exact same thing in another episode but with a different tone. ;)
 
@Alexander1312 you bring up many fantastic points! Truly enjoyed reading your response. You are not wrong about people giving bad advice with good intentions. I've done that in many areas in my life, not just reefing. When I do share, I attempt to incorporate what I have personally experienced/ observed and what I have read about other's successes.

I have learned a lot of things from you for example. You are not a famous internet personality (that I know of) or professional scientist (that I know of). Does that make you not worthy of considering your advice? But your approach is still valid. It encourages and challenges mainstream logic from what I have seen. I don't get annoyed by that. I get curious. Well, why do you think that way? How did you come to that conclusion?

Your perspective of kalk for example was one of the first negatives I can remember reading about. I haven't been doing this long. So I was going solely based on local recommendations and the countless positive posts and videos about it. The algorithms do a good job of keeping away the many international discussions about this antiquated methodology.

And I am still using Kalk btw on my IM50 (just refreshed it today), even though I know it is NOT the best method to accomplish what I want with that tank. Certainly "easy" to prepare and dose. But how do I get off it for that tank? Because stopping cold turkey is not a good option either from my understanding. I must admit, I have not researched that side of it.

A great nugget of wisdom and analogy about nutrients and trace elements that Dong mentioned is you can be hungry and ready to eat anything. Someone can offer you a filet mignon or poop. But they will also give you vitamins (traces) to eat after. So if you are only offered poop to eat but have some vitamins, you're still eating poop. He mentions when we are testing for NO³ or PO⁴, we don't know the quality of those parameters. At the end of the day, it's water full of literal crap (excess waste from multiple processes). The primary benefit to our corals is clean healthy water (ionically balanced). The traces don't matter as much if your water isn't well balanced. Funny enough... Meckley has said the exact same thing in another episode but with a different tone. ;)

Shame on you for still using Kalkwasser haha :). Seriously though, all good if you consider at least potential downsides and do not advocate without disclaimer to others, specifically newbies :).

And yes, I was mostly talking about myself when mentioning giving bad advice. Thought this was a given though.

Re Dong - I literally remembered this exact same thing best from his recent interviews too (did not know about Meckley making the same statement). I actually think Dong is the no. 1 interesting content in English per minute YouTube guy, with the second place being far away from him (which would be potentially Chris Woods). I only wish someone would tell him to use a proper MICROPHONE.
 
Back
Top