Bigfish's swim into the sea - a tank journal

[derek_SR]

just be extra careful with the dosing, overdosing can cause severe issues specially if you have tangs! I am also facing the same issue as you.. Unfortunately for me, Lanthanum Chloride didnt work either.. I had a bad case of cyano as well just like you.. I added UV, changed the flow direction and added Rowaphos and my Cyano disappeared.. Though I did turn off the lights for 3-4 days since I didnt have corals, so that might have played a factor too..


Did you test your fresh saltwater for phosphates? If phosphates are high even in your fresh saltwater, then you can rule out Over-feeding as a potential cause and can then look at your RODI or salt to be the potential culprit

Lanthanum 100% works to lower phosphates. I was just about to post my guide but looks like @BAYMAC and @Darkxerox beat me to it.

I am a big fan of lanthanum, but given that we have certainly identified the problem here - just stop feeding so much, do a bunch of water changes, and see how things go. Your PO4 levels are so high water changes are a very efficient method of removal right now.

Lanthanum is very effective, and while it can definitely be used to drop phosphate levels quickly, the best and safest way to use it is as a slow-drip maintenance approach to keep your po4 level steady at some target.

 

[spuri87]

How did it “not work” for you. How did you use it?

a very knowledgeable guy (with Masters in Bio) that works part-time at my LFS gave me Lanthanum Chloride during one of the setup rounds.. He dosed about 25 drops using a dropper when we 1st saw high Phosphates in my tank.. He added that directly into the skimmer.. Phosphates did come down initially but within few days were back to where they were..

Just want to add that although my cyano problem seems to be resolved, I am still struggling with high phosphates, but just not targeting that right now while I try to work on other issues in my tank.

 

[derek_SR]

a very knowledgeable guy (with Masters in Bio) that works part-time at my LFS gave me Lanthanum Chloride during one of the setup rounds.. He dosed about 25 drops using a dropper when we 1st saw high Phosphates in my tank.. He added that directly into the skimmer.. Phosphates did come down initially but within few days were back to where they were..

Just want to add that although my cyano problem seems to be resolved, I am still struggling with high phosphates, but just not targeting that right now while I try to work on other issues in my tank.

Why would you expect lanthanum to stop the source of the phosphates? It will remove the phosphates, but it doesn't stop you from adding food or your fish from pooping. You need to balance both the import and export side of the equation. Adding some drops of lanthanum once and then expecting phosphates to stay low forever is not the way.

 

[spuri87]

Lanthanum 100% works to lower phosphates. I was just about to post my guide but looks like @BAYMAC and @Darkxerox beat me to it.

I am a big fan of lanthanum, but given that we have certainly identified the problem here - just stop feeding so much, do a bunch of water changes, and see how things go. Your PO4 levels are so high water changes are a very efficient method of removal right now.

Lanthanum is very effective, and while it can definitely be used to drop phosphate levels quickly, the best and safest way to use it is as a slow-drip maintenance approach to keep your po4 level steady at some target.

Yeah I was hoping it would magically bring down phosphates in my tank as my LFS guy is a big fan too and always use it in 'safe' doses in all client tanks.. But.... it didnt for me for some reason, I added same dosage 1 more time, with little impact.. May give it a try again, once I am past Hypo stage in my tank

 

[spuri87]

Why would you expect lanthanum to stop the source of the phosphates? It will remove the phosphates, but it doesn't stop you from adding food or your fish from pooping. You need to balance both the import and export side of the equation. Adding some drops of lanthanum once and then expecting phosphates to stay low forever is not the way.

Fully agree, funny thing is that I didnt have any fish when we did it in my tank.. this was that 1 month when I was cycling my tank and checking params left and right and learning on the go.. I was ghost feeding for a few days and thought that would have been raising the phosphates, added LaCl3 and stopped the 'source' (ghost feeding) with little to no impact and phosphates were back up.. Surely, I didnt do something right, as LaCL3 is supposed to bring down the phosphates drastically.. but didnt care at that point in time since I had no fish and no plans to add corals anytime soon.. re-checked the dates of the convo to confirm it was before fish were added

 

[derek_SR]

Fully agree, funny thing is that I didnt have any fish when we did it in my tank.. this was that 1 month when I was cycling my tank and checking params left and right and learning on the go.. I was ghost feeding for a few days and thought that would have been raising the phosphates, added LaCl3 and stopped the 'source' (ghost feeding) with little to no impact and phosphates were back up.. Surely, I didnt do something right, as LaCL3 is supposed to bring down the phosphates drastically.. but didnt care at that point in time since I had no fish and no plans to add corals anytime soon.. re-checked the dates of the convo to confirm it was before fish were added

It was probably coming out of your rocks. Phosphate levels in the rocks equalize with the water, and you'll see them release sequestered phosphate for a while after bringing down po4 levels in the water. Or at least, this seems to be the prevailing theory that most of us have experienced to be rather true.

 

[MichaelB]

People use this with a doser, not dropping by hand. It's definitely not a use once and done, it can drop them quickly but I gather you don't want drastic changes. It's used to keep them at x level. Once you get to x level you also have to address what got you high to start with. Rocks leaching p04 will eventually stop leaching through water changes. Basically find a routine and stick with it. Also your fish should remain your main focus. Your not loaded up with corals so no reason to worry about po4 and no3 at present. Keep the fish well feed and hopefully they bounce back to 100%.

Once that's solved if you wanna address po4, I'm sure that's when I recommend reading @derek_SR article and feel free to ask him questions for clarity. Right now stuff about dosing or using LC is just information that you shouldn't really even be concerned with.
Yet it does work when used correctly and with proper expectations and understanding of what it does and doesn't do.

I personally just use gfo reactors running Rowaphos (basically gfo blend.) I didn't feel like doing all the needed homework and dedicating a doser for LC. So I found the reactor easier where I'm currently at. Not to say I would rule out LC in future by anymeans.

 

[spuri87]

People use this with a doser, not dropping by hand. It's definitely not a use once and done, it can drop them quickly but I gather you don't want drastic changes. It's used to keep them at x level. Once you get to x level you also have to address what got you high to start with. Rocks leaching p04 will eventually stop leaching through water changes. Basically find a routine and stick with it. Also your fish should remain your main focus. Your not loaded up with corals so no reason to worry about po4 and no3 at present. Keep the fish well feed and hopefully they bounce back to 100%.

Once that's solved if you wanna address po4, I'm sure that's when I recommend reading @derek_SR article and feel free to ask him questions for clarity. Right now stuff about dosing or using LC is just information that you shouldn't really even be concerned with.
Yet it does work when used correctly and with proper expectations and understanding of what it does and doesn't do.

I personally just use gfo reactors running Rowaphos (basically gfo blend.) I didn't feel like doing all the needed homework and dedicating a doser for LC. So I found the reactor easier where I'm currently at. Not to say I would rule out LC in future by anymeans.

yep like I said above, that's what I am focussing on right now! just wanted to share my experience using LC during the cycling stage.. once I am out in the clear, will try LC again following instructions from Derek's article.. until then no need to worry about it, since I dont have any corals in my tank anyways.

 

[Bigfish]

I have a confession to make and probably a good thing I checked! By "fresh" Saltwater I assumed maybe the little bit I had left from my last batch a few weeks ago would suffice, BUT I couldn't wait so during my lunch I went and tested the saltwater I had left in the mixing drum....it came back at .47 ppm hahaha. Another lesson learned make sure to dump everything out if not used as it can have or accumulate high phosphates. I use Reef Crystals as my typical salt.

As soon as my resin comes in I will make sure I always start from scratch filling up the mixing drum and try the test again, hope the shipping doesn't take long

Took some quick pics of the state of union before I had to run off

 

[Coral reefer]

Why would we assume it accumulated and wasn’t just like that the whole time?

 

[Bigfish]

Why would we assume it accumulated and wasn’t just like that the whole time?

Yeah what I want to do is as soon as I get my RODI system fixed with new resin, run it again when the water is back to 0ppm and see if I'm still getting high phosphates then I would need to really figure out what's going on. In addition I will make sure moving forward to completely empty the barrel of any old saltwater before filling it up with new water for a new water change

 

[Bigfish]

Are you leaving your plank pump on 24/7? I found that this is pretty critical to keep everything from getting gunked up in the cylinder. The mysis should fully rehydrate if you adjust things well. But having mixed foods like Derek said can prove problematic.

Sorry no at the time I was away on vacation I had it set to two times a day and didn't see that too much food was getting released. It eventually built up in the release pipe, because mysis is slow to sink I think this was the problem it kept adding more and more when I came back and noticed it was a nightmare to clean and smelled like death (Again I think the common issue for me is not properly calibrating my feedings with the auto feeder should have absolutely paid more attention to that)

 

[Slingfox]

You guys all are right I went back and checked how much food was being dispersed even at my 3 minute interval and it was way too much. I scaled back to 1 min and well see how it goes. I did the trick of testing my phosphates with half fresh saltwater and half tank water and I still got a .9 reading smh which is not good. It's obvious this has been the biggest issue in my tank. I used to use Dried mysis but they didn't sink as well as some members I talked to at the frag swap know, it built up and was disgusting to clean.

Thats why I exclusively switched to sinking dense pellets which has been working much nicer. I have a power head right underneath the Plank which pushes the food and allows all the fish to have a chance to eat and not let it settle in one spot.

I am waiting to do a massive water change due to my RODI set up needing new resin, ordered it waiting to be delivered sometime this week. My current readings are 1ppm and hope to get that down to 0 when the new resin comes in. In the meantime I have added some new filter floss and have Polly fill on the way thanks to @Cilyjr tank journal suggestion. In addition I have been carbon dosing with Elimi-NP in the mean time to help bring down some of the nitrates and phosphates. I'm considering using GFO as a short term solution but decided against it for now I don't want too rapid of a change that may bring other problems with it.

I also got the Chaetogrow @Darkxerox mentioned hoping to get my refugium going that would be my first choice if possible, if I still can't get it to grow I might start considering going the cryptic sump mount mentioned by @Slingfox, thank you everyone for your helpful suggestions! I'm surprised my tank is doing so well considering the crazy conditions it's been in and thankful I haven't lost so much more than I could have. I'm really excited to try and it get back on track. I feel like I been a bit neglectful due to seeing my tank do seemingly well, but unfortunately that has caught up to me and won't be something I will allow to happen again.


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To get a read on the phosphate level, you can test with 2.5ml of tank water plus 7.5ml of RODI. Then multiple the result by 4. If you don’t have a single channel pipette (this is what I use https://a.co/d/cmHb933) you can accomplish this dilution by adding 10ml of tank water to 30ml of RODI, mixing, then taking 10ml from the mixed solution.

I would hope you don’t have 0.9 x 4 =3.6 ppm of phosphates or higher but let’s see!

 

[Slingfox]

Yeah what I want to do is as soon as I get my RODI system fixed with new resin, run it again when the water is back to 0ppm and see if I'm still getting high phosphates then I would need to really figure out what's going on. In addition I will make sure moving forward to completely empty the barrel of any old saltwater before filling it up with new water for a new water change

In case you haven’t thought of it, you should also replace your RO membrane if you have not done that in a while. For some reason people overlook this.

 

[Bigfish]

To get a read on the phosphate level, you can test with 2.5ml of tank water plus 7.5ml of RODI. Then multiple the result by 4. If you don’t have a single channel pipette (this is what I use https://a.co/d/cmHb933) you can accomplish this dilution by adding 10ml of tank water to 30ml of RODI, mixing, then taking 10ml from the mixed solution.

I would hope you don’t have 0.9 x 4 =3.6 ppm of phosphates or higher but let’s see!

Wow thank you I have a smaller RODI set up under my sink. I'll see what the TDS meter puts it as and see if I can use that as the base line water to mix in with tank water and do this calculation!

 

[Darkxerox]

Sorry no at the time I was away on vacation I had it set to two times a day and didn't see that too much food was getting released. It eventually built up in the release pipe, because mysis is slow to sink I think this was the problem it kept adding more and more when I came back and noticed it was a nightmare to clean and smelled like death (Again I think the common issue for me is not properly calibrating my feedings with the auto feeder should have absolutely paid more attention to that)

Definitely leave the pump on, otherwise the chamber gets stagnant and things will grow. It does need cleaning once in awhile, especially if you don't have the cannonball.

 

[Bigfish]

As soon as I woke up after putting my son to sleep (end up sleeping trying to put him to sleep smh) I ran downstairs to try the experiment @Slingfox suggested! I tested my drinking water which surprisingly came up over 0.9 pmm for phosphates. I then decided to go outside braving the cold to test my RODI set up and I got a reading of 0.05ppm (how ironic pretty much ideal range). For me this was good enough as I know I'm going to be high regardless. Never thought I would use this little syringe, but came in handy! I came back in and did the test with the tank water only to find out I switched the amount of tank water and RODI, cursing at my lack of preciseness, I again went once more into the cold to get my RODI sample, for science...

Finally when doing the test correctly I was able to get a reading!!! 0.56 ppm which would equate to 2.24 ppm of Phosphate (.56 x4) not good but at least a starting point
in the words of Jessy Pinkman "Yeah Science B*****" thank you again Slingfox for the suggestion!

 

[Bigfish]

At this super high level would you guys recommend running GFO or attempting to dose Lanthanum Chloride? I'm just so surprised my tank hasn't fully crashed completely at this point...


Edit: Just ordered some Phosphat-E from Brightwell should come in later today I read somewhere I can use GFO concurrently with LC? should I just try with LC for now then move to GFO when I get closer to ideal? Thanks

 

[MichaelB]

At this super high level would you guys recommend running GFO or attempting to dose Lanthanum Chloride? I'm just so surprised my tank hasn't fully crashed completely at this point...


Edit: Just ordered some Phosphat-E from Brightwell should come in later today I read somewhere I can use GFO concurrently with LC? should I just try with LC for now then move to GFO when I get closer to ideal? Thanks

Are you saying your p04 is that high in your rodi water?

I would except you have very high TDS, and likely source is rodi filters are spent or something isn't functioning properly with in ur rodi setup.

Do you have a tds meter, even one of the cheap ones from Amazon would help give you some kinda idea if your rodi setups doesn't come with one.

If your starting with rodi water with that much po4 your only adding po4 with ever water change and with rodi auto top offs.

Using gfo or LC to try to counter that is like trying to swim through the air. Solution would be tk address rodi water to get to zero TDS.

Once there I would dump all existing ato water and exchange it with 0 TDS water. Also plan for massive water changes.

It's also likely you would have tons of po4 inside rock structures that may leach for a while until things eventually level out.

1st step check rodi TDS and address it.

***Don't over dose The LC, trying to rapidly fix the problem.

Again address rodi water first so your not just adding po4.