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Remote Deep Sand Bed

Been contemplating installing a remote deep sand bed. I've read some great and not so great posts in other forums.

Has anyone here ever tried out a remote deep sandbed setup?

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In a previous tank I had a DSB in my large refugium. I wouldn’t do it again. I don’t think there is any real upside, and there are potential downsides.
 
I tried that long ago. Along with many many things.
I had a specialized 12" x 12" x 8" deep RDSB in a box. Before return pump section.

No problems, kinda helped, but not great.
Might work better with carbon dosing though.
 
Wanted to add additional bio filtration to boost efficiency in my nem tank... though I run a sump with chaeto, I thought a rdsb might provide some additional benefits to counter some of the issues Bruce encountered in his past experiences

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The reason a deep sand bed (DSB) works is it allows a very slow penetration of nitrate and organics (necessary for the process; people sometimes forget about this part of the process) into regions where O2 penetration is also slow. You can accomplish this same process much easier with things like the MarinePure 4" brick. It is thick enough to allow for a low o2 and slow penetration area in the middle without the difficulties of a remote sand bed.
 
So run the tank with tons of marine pure balls... given the size, I didn't think there is enough density to have a low o2 zone. Or would it?

My thought on the rdsb was to create exactly that... get some anaerobic action going to remove nitrates without the problem with have a dsb in the tank or sump.

Right now my nitrates measure 0, I suspect that as my nem population grows, I may have some challenges there.

I don't want to run a skimmer on this particular system...so didn't think carbon dosing would help since I am not mechanically removing any of the protein and other junk.

My thought was to run a rdsb between my tank and my sump. Flow the water across the rdsb, then through my filter sock and then across my refugium which as a foam filter in the latest stage before returning back up

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You are correct that carbon dosing without a skimmer won’t work well, the bacteria stimulated to take up the nutrients would just break down into nutrients back into the tank rather than being exported as skimmate.

Without a skimmer you will have lots more nutrients to deal with since food/poop won’t be removed before it breaks down into nutrients. You also will lose the gas exchange advantages of a skimmer, which are huge in my opinion.

DSB or large MP block can keep nitrate levels in check, but since it doesn’t remove biomass, it won’t do anything for phosphates or other nutrients that build up. So now you have to set up a phosphate reactor. And a carbon reactor if you weren’t already planning it, since you’ll have more additional organics building up. You could just do more water changes to keep all of this in check, but then why bother with the DSB?

Another problem with a DSB is that you have no real control over what it is doing or how much it is doing it, sort of setup-and-pray rather than titration to measured nutrient levels like other approaches.
 
That being said, I may consider installing a skimmer... my filter sock foams... perhaps it's from the extra air I have in the downspout...more turbulence

So virtually like a skimmer but without the collection for removal.



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You are correct that carbon dosing without a skimmer won’t work well, the bacteria stimulated to take up the nutrients would just break down into nutrients back into the tank rather than being exported as skimmate.

Without a skimmer you will have lots more nutrients to deal with since food/poop won’t be removed before it breaks down into nutrients. You also will lose the gas exchange advantages of a skimmer, which are huge in my opinion.

DSB or large MP block can keep nitrate levels in check, but since it doesn’t remove biomass, it won’t do anything for phosphates or other nutrients that build up. So now you have to set up a phosphate reactor. And a carbon reactor if you weren’t already planning it, since you’ll have more additional organics building up. You could just do more water changes to keep all of this in check, but then why bother with the DSB?

Another problem with a DSB is that you have no real control over what it is doing or how much it is doing it, sort of setup-and-pray rather than titration to measured nutrient levels like other approaches.

I was always a proponent for the use of the skimmer for gas exchange purposes too until I started testing out how much of the gas exchange was actually coming from my skimmer. I used ph as my indicator for what was happening. I started out with my skimmer running 24/7 like most people. Then I tried only running it opposite of when my refugium light was on for a few days. I didn't see a difference but still went back to 24/7 usage. A while later I was getting very little skimmate in the collection cup (like 1/2" over 2 weeks). It was nice and dark but still very little, so I decided to just turn it off for a few days. Again no difference in pH. Not long after that I took it off line and it stayed that way for a couple months before I shut down the tank.
 
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I was always a proponent for the use of the skimmer for gas exchange purposes too until I started testing out how much of the gas exchange was actually coming from my skimmer. I used ph as my indicator for what was happening. I started out with my skimmer running 24/7 like most people. Then I tried only running it opposite of when my refugium light was on for a few days. I didn't see a difference but still went back to 24/7 usage. A while later I was getting very little skimmate in the collection cup (like 1/2" over 2 weeks). It was nice and dark but still very little, so I decided to just turn it off for a few days. Again no difference in pH. Not long after that I took it off line and it stayed that way for a couple months before I shut down the tank.

I did some similar experiments, with similar results.
But when I ran a CO2 scrubber on the air into my skimmer, it made a BIG different in PH.
So there is gas exchange, just not the magic you expect when using normal air.
Or worse, the air in a relatively sealed stand, where most people have their sump.
 
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Gas exchange is not just for removing CO2, but also for adding O2 (plus other minor components like removing volatile organics). The O2 part is the more important and more difficult to measure.

Inside the stand is one issue, but more important is that your tank is inside your house, where you have a bunch of animals respirating behind closed doors. That is a main driver of increased CO2 and decreased pH in most systems with good gas exchange. So when you have a relatively high CO2 in the air around your tank and you go with or without the skimmer you may not notice much of a different in pH, but when you have an air intake for the skimmer from outside or from a CO2 scrubber you will.

O2 is not nearly as much affected by being inside (a lot more of it), so good gas exchange through your skimmer is still important for keeping O2 levels up, regardless of where the air intake is.
 
I did some similar experiments, with similar results.
But when I ran a CO2 scrubber on the air into my skimmer, it made a BIG different in PH.
So there is gas exchange, just not the magic you expect when using normal air.
Or worse, the air in a relatively sealed stand, where most people have their sump.

But did the change in PH make any difference? :)
 
How exactly do we introduce air into a skimmer? I was advised this last year because my classroom is a big almost-sealed CO2 chamber. Feed a small airline tube from outside into the air intake pipe? Or use a bigger tube to fit the whole intake?
Also, I will search if people have CO2 scrubber photos. I don't know if this is a complicated product or something simple people rig up. Also looking up carbon foam. ?
@Bruce Spiegelman Why do you say a nem tank needs a carbon reactor? To feed bacteria to process food waste?
 
One of the reasons experts will tell you over and over again that Nems should only be put into an established aquarium of at least six months is because they are particularly sensitive to even sub-par water quality. One of the best ways to maintain water quality is with carbon. Its a chemical filtration method that pulls out pollutants, contaminants and organics. It also helps keep the other Nems safe when a nem gets chopped up in a power head or when one disintegrates for no known reason. It also makes the water look sparkling clean. :)
 
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