Jestersix

Talk about responsible fish harvesting

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Susan Ingram

Supporting Member
Can I ask a question and not to keep bad juju going but..... what about LFS that continually have dead fish in their tanks or have them still boxed for a day or two after the new shipment arrives? How does that play a role in the big picture?
 

Bruce Spiegelman

Supporting Member
Can I ask a question and not to keep bad juju going but..... what about LFS that continually have dead fish in their tanks or have them still boxed for a day or two after the new shipment arrives? How does that play a role in the big picture?
The truth is that most of us don't like to think of the big picture. If you spend anytime at an LFS unpacking new fish shipments you quickly realize that a 20% death rate in shipping is common on average. Add to that another 10% or so inn the first 24 hours and a third of all fish die before someone even gets a chance to take them home and put them in their tank.

But wait! It gets worse. The shipments that go to your LFS first went through a distributor where they arrived from a very long trip from where they were collected. The death rate in these is at least as high since many of the fish are stressed for longer periods, were subject to bad collecting procedures, etc -- and this is thousands of fish a week going to distributors.

But wait! It gets worse. First they had to be collected and sent to holding locations from the original wholesalers. Often these are facilities with sub-optimal holding pools with thousands and thousands of fish. Many have diseases which spread, infect and kill before they leave the facility.

So the question is what percentage of fish die in transit before we put them in our tanks? There was a study on this a number of years ago, and it's more than a little horrifying. I'm sure someone here has the link.

It's one of the reasons that sustainability is the cornerstone of this club, and the reason many are passionate about not contributing any further to the death rate by ignoring best practices.
 

Randyadammartin

Supporting Member
The truth is that most of us don't like to think of the big picture. If you spend anytime at an LFS unpacking new fish shipments you quickly realize that a 20% death rate in shipping is common on average. Add to that another 10% or so inn the first 24 hours and a third of all fish die before someone even gets a chance to take them home and put them in their tank.

But wait! It gets worse. The shipments that go to your LFS first went through a distributor where they arrived from a very long trip from where they were collected. The death rate in these is at least as high since many of the fish are stressed for longer periods, were subject to bad collecting procedures, etc -- and this is thousands of fish a week going to distributors.

But wait! It gets worse. First they had to be collected and sent to holding locations from the original wholesalers. Often these are facilities with sub-optimal holding pools with thousands and thousands of fish. Many have diseases which spread, infect and kill before they leave the facility.

So the question is what percentage of fish die in transit before we put them in our tanks? There was a study on this a number of years ago, and it's more than a little horrifying. I'm sure someone here has the link.

It's one of the reasons that sustainability is the cornerstone of this club, and the reason many are passionate about not contributing any further to the death rate by ignoring best practices.

....or you could just buy from a responsible lfs that imports there own fish such as violet sea in Santa Clara. 360 coralz in San Jose. Besides being cheaper because you have no middle
Man the fish are stressed far less.
 

Bruce Spiegelman

Supporting Member
Can I ask a question and not to keep bad juju going but..... what about LFS that continually have dead fish in their tanks or have them still boxed for a day or two after the new shipment arrives? How does that play a role in the big picture?
 

Bruce Spiegelman

Supporting Member
....or you could just buy from a responsible lfs that imports there own fish such as violet sea in Santa Clara. 360 coralz in San Jose. Besides being cheaper because you have no middle
Man the fish are stressed far less.
I suppose direct importers do take one step out of the chain, but it's still the least lethal step. The death rate in shipping (from the Philippines and others where I believe those shops get most of their stock from) is still incredibly high especially since many fish from that region are illegally collected using cyanide.

I also have some trepidation about how they hold their fish when they arrive. For the most part dozens of different species are held together, and very often the amount of aggression in those tanks can be high -- so I'm not sure there's substantially less stress for the animals.

The truth is no matter who receives the fish just prior to an end-user far, far more die in transit than ever make it into a tank.
 

Randyadammartin

Supporting Member
I suppose direct importers do take one step out of the chain, but it's still the least lethal step. The death rate in shipping (from the Philippines and others where I believe those shops get most of their stock from) is still incredibly high especially since many fish from that region are illegally collected using cyanide.

I also have some trepidation about how they hold their fish when they arrive. For the most part dozens of different species are held together, and very often the amount of aggression in those tanks can be high -- so I'm not sure there's substantially less stress for the animals.

The truth is no matter who receives the fish just prior to an end-user far, far more die in transit than ever make it into a tank.
Actually you’re distributing incorrect information of yesteryear. A good portion of fish come from
Tonga and Australia. These countries have outlawed the practice of using cyanide to stun the fish so they may catch it.

example: “The use, storage and transport of explosives, noxious substances (including cyanide and naturally derived substances in any form) for the purpose of killing, stunning, stupefying, disabling or capturing Marine Aquarium fish, per section 17 of the Act is prohibited;”

Source: Tonga government.

 

Susan Ingram

Supporting Member
The truth is that most of us don't like to think of the big picture. If you spend anytime at an LFS unpacking new fish shipments you quickly realize that a 20% death rate in shipping is common on average. Add to that another 10% or so inn the first 24 hours and a third of all fish die before someone even gets a chance to take them home and put them in their tank.

But wait! It gets worse. The shipments that go to your LFS first went through a distributor where they arrived from a very long trip from where they were collected. The death rate in these is at least as high since many of the fish are stressed for longer periods, were subject to bad collecting procedures, etc -- and this is thousands of fish a week going to distributors.

But wait! It gets worse. First they had to be collected and sent to holding locations from the original wholesalers. Often these are facilities with sub-optimal holding pools with thousands and thousands of fish. Many have diseases which spread, infect and kill before they leave the facility.

So the question is what percentage of fish die in transit before we put them in our tanks? There was a study on this a number of years ago, and it's more than a little horrifying. I'm sure someone here has the link.

It's one of the reasons that sustainability is the cornerstone of this club, and the reason many are passionate about not contributing any further to the death rate by ignoring best practices.
Thank you for this Bruce. I knew of some of the practices but not to this extent. I will search and see if I can find that study. I agree with the club's ethical codes and is a reason why I joined. Being new to the hobby I really appreciate this type of knowledge. Thank you!!
 

Bruce Spiegelman

Supporting Member
Actually you’re distributing incorrect information of yesteryear. A good portion of fish come from
Tonga and Australia. These countries have outlawed the practice of using cyanide to stun the fish so they may catch it.

example: “The use, storage and transport of explosives, noxious substances (including cyanide and naturally derived substances in any form) for the purpose of killing, stunning, stupefying, disabling or capturing Marine Aquarium fish, per section 17 of the Act is prohibited;”

Source: Tonga government.

Ah -- didn't realize I was disseminating data from yesteryear. I appreciate the heads up. Out of curiosity would you happen to know the percent of ornamental reef fish exported from Tonga and Australia in comparison to the Philippine's, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka where cyanide collection is more common?
 
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Randyadammartin

Supporting Member
Ah -- didn't realize I was disseminating data from yesteryear. I appreciate the heads up. Out of curiosity would you happen to know the percent of ornamental reef fish exported from Tonga and Hawaii in comparison to the Philippine's, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka where cyanide collection is more common?

no, no I don’t. I hear google is a preferred searching method.
 

Bruce Spiegelman

Supporting Member
no, no I don’t. I hear google is a preferred searching method.
No problem. Thanks for the heads up. I just thought you might have the up-to-date info readily at hand since you noted I was " incorrect information of yesteryear."

I'll look it up tomorrow and post the info so I can correct my error and incorrect dissemination of data. I appreciate you pointing it out.
 

sfsuphysics

BOD
Staff member
Ah -- didn't realize I was disseminating data from yesteryear. I appreciate the heads up. Out of curiosity would you happen to know the percent of ornamental reef fish exported from Tonga and Hawaii in comparison to the Philippine's, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka where cyanide collection is more common?
Well Hawaii is 0 now isn't it?
 

Twisted

Supporting Member
What fish/inverts do you have and how big is your tank? I’ll start....

sail fin tang
Hippo tang
Yellow tang
Naso tang
4 clown fish
Rainbow bta
Rose bta
Sea urchin
Sea apple
2 star fish
2 Halloween hermit crabs
1 indo blue hermit crab
Red fire shrimp
It’s funny how you’re being so critical to the members of the club for not doing “our research” when you’re literally abusing fish adding that many in your tiny tank. Funny isn’t it ?
 
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