WYSIWYG SPS Coral Colonies

[Edgar Sandoval]

I believe Ed's actions are justifiable. However, the ethics of selling coral that have known pests like aiptasia or flatworms is indeed a concern. If we're striving for ethical practices, it's worth considering that some stores may be contributing to animal cruelty by allowing the sale of infected coral.

 

[SupraSaltyReefer]

As a hobbiest, my view of what Ed is offering to the community is giving the reefers options! An option to the reefers who don’t want to pay high prices and willing to take a risk. Any reefer that’s willing to go pick up corals and fish at midnight probably isn’t a noob. So whether it gets acclimated at the LFS or at home is all the same if not even better. Most LFS aren’t surviving with everyday walk in sales so sometimes you have to get creative and do things out side of the norm to attract more customers.

If we are comparing puppies to corals and fish than shouldn’t all coral and fish at LFS be sold quarantined and free of diseases and pests just like how a puppy is sold with vaccinations, giving them the best chance at survival?

For what it’s worth, I’ve gotten some great fish from 6th Ave Aquarium’s Sunday bag lot sales. They come from the same wholesaler in the Bay Area so they aren’t in the bag overnight or anything.

 

[RandyC]

I believe Ed's actions are justifiable. However, the ethics of selling coral that have known pests like aiptasia or flatworms is indeed a concern. If we're striving for ethical practices, it's worth considering that some stores may be contributing to animal cruelty by allowing the sale of infected coral.

As a hobbiest, my view of what Ed is offering to the community is giving the reefers options! An option to the reefers who don’t want to pay high prices and willing to take a risk. Any reefer that’s willing to go pick up corals and fish at midnight probably isn’t a noob. So whether it gets acclimated at the LFS or at home is all the same if not even better. Most LFS aren’t surviving with everyday walk in sales so sometimes you have to get creative and do things out side of the norm to attract more customers.

If we are comparing puppies to corals and fish than shouldn’t all coral and fish at LFS be sold quarantined and free of diseases and pests just like how a puppy is sold with vaccinations, giving them the best chance at survival?

For what it’s worth, I’ve gotten some great fish from 6th Ave Aquarium’s Sunday bag lot sales. They come from the same wholesaler in the Bay Area so they aren’t in the bag overnight or anything.

I would tend to agree with this. If it's all about being ethical and helping to ensure survival of our animals, vendors that sell fish or coral with known pests and diseases that could infect an entire reefer's tank shouldn't be selling those fish or coral. An extended QT is probably needed for all incoming livestock to condition fish/coral to our ocean in a box to help survivability rates. In my mind, this is actually a pretty big offense because most reefers in general aren't ready to handle an "infected" tank and end up killing a lot of life.

I'm genuinely curious though, what is in the process that an LFS can commit to that makes it an ethical sale vs a non-ethical sale? Because honestly, in my mind, the only truly ethical thing to do is to not sell fish or coral. Everything else is a matter of interpretation.

What is Clearwater really doing? It's offering a product at a lower cost where the known risk is passed onto the buyer. I don't see what part is unethical.

1) the exact source of the coral is known
2) the exact risks are detailed and this info is passed onto the buyer
3) info regarding the time of shipment and the time that the coral has spent in the bag is passed onto the buyer

This is more information than I get buying frags from most LFSes and online vendors. Clearwater is hiding nothing about these sales as far as I know. Unethical would be selling these as something that was aquacultured in their tanks and then give it a fancy name when they actually had just landed at the airport. Or selling it without providing any of the information at all. Or straight up lying and saying they've been healthy and in their tanks for a while.

People buying these special buys know these risks as they are sold with this information and will be experienced reefers more than likely. Newer reefers likely won't want to take on the risk. And let's be honest. If you have a reefer with a shitty tank, no coral is going to do well healthy or not, "conditioned" or not in a shitty tank.

 

[Slingfox]

Here in the Bay Area, only one LFS has rigorously quarantined fish: HighTide Aquatics. Does that mean all the other LFS are not taking enough precautions to sell disease and parasite free fish to consumers? I accept this as economic reality since most reefers don’t care about quarantine (all my fish go through medicated quarantine) and businesses need to survive.

For corals, I am not aware of any LFS which has a pest free guarantee. Even the major online coral sellers don’t guarantee pest free coral even though they go through multi-week Interceptor rounds multiple times a year. Therefore any coral, whether bought from an LFS or magically teleported directly from a reef in Indonesian or Australia is going to be treated the same.

 

[newfly]

I don’t understand what is the issue. I order the corals from Ed twice , picked up from his tank on Friday. Is this more ethical from the folks that pickup on Thursday night? The understand is I take the risk if the coral didn’t make it either in transit or the overnight in his tank. Both the coral colony is doing great, growing at a good clip. How is this more unethical than if I buy from any local or online Coral place?

@ClearWaterAquarium why not ask folks to pickup Friday morning and everyone is happy?

I agree with most of the folks here. It’s not ethical to keep animals in a tank for our selfish pleasure. We are still doing it anyway. It doesn’t mean we should abuse the animal but on technicality we are to some extent. Nothing Ed is doing is worse than any retailer.

Hope a BOD can help clarify the situation.

 

[newfly]

Here in the Bay Area, only one LFS has rigorously quarantined fish: HighTide Aquatics. Does that mean all the other LFS are not taking enough precautions to sell disease and parasite free fish to consumers? I accept this as economic reality since most reefers don’t care about quarantine (all my fish go through medicated quarantine) and businesses need to survive.

For corals, I am not aware of any LFS which has a pest free guarantee. Even the major online coral sellers don’t guarantee pest free coral even though they go through multi-week Interceptor rounds multiple times a year. Therefore any coral, whether bought from an LFS or magically teleported directly from a reef in Indonesian or Australia is going to be treated the same.

Is quarantine fish ethical? Subjecting the fish to an extremely stressful situation for weeks at a time and likely high death rate. The “right” thing to do is to run MRI , blood test and all the diagnostic tests possible on every fish and only treat the issue found. LOL

I still quarantine my fish, but since we are talking about ethics I’m just bringing this up for discussion .

 

[robert4025]

As a local fish store owner and sponsor of Bay Area Reefers (BAR), I want to share some insights into the steps I take to ensure the survival of SPS corals in my care. To maximize their chances of thriving, I follow a rigorous process:

1. Inspection and Dipping: Every incoming batch of SPS corals is thoroughly inspected and dipped multiple times (at least 3-4 times) before being sold.
2. Optimal Placement: I carefully observe and adjust their placement in our system to ensure optimal lighting, flow, and other conditions tailored to their needs. This often involves reducing flow and lighting requirements and providing supplemental feeding.
3. Nutritional Support: Stressed corals don't feed well, so I provide amino acid coral food that can be absorbed directly through their tissue.
4. Fragmentation and Ongoing Care: After 2-3 weeks of conditioning, I fragment the corals, and these fragments are dipped every single week thereafter.

This process may be time-consuming, but it significantly increases the survival rate of these delicate animals. As a member of BAR, I'm committed to upholding the organization's standards for ethical coral husbandry practices. I expect the same level of dedication from our members.

If the organization's direction is shifting towards prioritizing cost-saving measures over best practices, I question whether I'm the right sponsor for BAR. Our community is built on a shared passion for high-level reef keeping, and I believe we should maintain our commitment to excellence.

 

[tribbitt]

These orders aren't just for BAR. Corals not sold immediately are taken care of in the standard way, but they return towards normal price because of dipping / feeding / tank space / attention & care

The thread is just a special offer from Ed to call dibs on a coral before it arrives. The effort of acclimation is just moved from the store to the customer, and so the cost is less. Unless the assumption is that our tanks are inferior or unfit for acclimation, I don’t see where ethics are shedded along the way, from the animal's point of view anyway

 

[Thales]

The thread is just a special offer from Ed to call dibs on a coral before it arrives. The effort of acclimation is just moved from the store to the customer, and so the cost is less. Unless the assumption is that our tanks are inferior or unfit for acclimation, I don’t see where ethics are shedded along the way, from the animal's point of view anyway

The club has always picked and choosed which store/sellers to support in order to support the mission -

"The purpose of the organization is to promote, foster, and encourage education and appreciation for the ethical husbandry and propagation of marine life; and to acquire and own such property as may be necessary for any or all of the forgoing purposes."

Clearwater can do whatever it likes, and people can do whatever they like.
The question the BOD is discussing, is if the club an appropriate platform to promote those activities, not to stop those activities from happening.

Which exporter is Clearwater using for these shipments?


Please note that I am not on the BOD. I was a founding member of the club and have had these discussions before and have written extensively about ethics in the hobby.

 

[tribbitt]

Clearwater can do whatever it likes, and people can do whatever they like.
The question the BOD is discussing, is if the club an appropriate platform to promote those activities, not to stop those activities from happening.

Good point. BAR is trying to be exceptional in terms of husbandry, not acceptable

 

[Thales]

Good point. BAR is trying to be exceptional in terms of husbandry, not acceptable

Thanks!
The club is not supposed to be like facebook market place!

 

[newfly]

Thanks!
The club is not supposed to be like facebook market place!

This doesn't make sense. We have an active "Buy/Sell" section which practically is facebook market place. Are we now saying we should not buy / sell on this club? What about the group buy? Neptune advertise here once a while. I still don;t think this is related to ethics.

How did the last batch do folks? Didn’t see a lot of success with these last round…at least none of yall posted anything other than they were fading out.

I ordered twice, and both are thriving! the first one faded out even before i pickup but growing well. The recent one is exactly as pictured and thriving as well.

 

[Thales]

This doesn't make sense. We have an active "Buy/Sell" section which practically is facebook market place. Are we now saying we should not buy / sell on this club? What about the group buy? Neptune advertise here once a while. I still don;t think this is related to ethics.

Facebook market place is open to anyone. The buy sell forum on this site is for members, and has rules and guidelines to help support the clubs mission, reduce scams, support each other, support stores that are not flash in the pan and are being ethical, weed out jerks, and try to stop people from buying stuff from other members and flipping it for a profit. The club exists to support the members, sponsors, and greater community by supporting its mission which is built on the idea of ethical husbandry. Very different from Facebook marketplace.

Group buys on dry goods to save shipping made some kind of sense to me, though originally the MO was to try to go through vendors that are vetted and support the club. Group buys on livestock have always seemed sketchy to me practically and ethically.

The BOD hasn't really weighed in on this whole topic so far. They seemed to have discussed some issues and in an abundance of caution put a hold on some activities till they can figure it out. Ethics is a complex subject, and every club decision I have been involved in that was about ethics had people saying it can't be about ethics.

 

[derek_SR]

I would tend to agree with this. If it's all about being ethical and helping to ensure survival of our animals, vendors that sell fish or coral with known pests and diseases that could infect an entire reefer's tank shouldn't be selling those fish or coral. An extended QT is probably needed for all incoming livestock to condition fish/coral to our ocean in a box to help survivability rates. In my mind, this is actually a pretty big offense because most reefers in general aren't ready to handle an "infected" tank and end up killing a lot of life.

I'm genuinely curious though, what is in the process that an LFS can commit to that makes it an ethical sale vs a non-ethical sale? Because honestly, in my mind, the only truly ethical thing to do is to not sell fish or coral. Everything else is a matter of interpretation.

What is Clearwater really doing? It's offering a product at a lower cost where the known risk is passed onto the buyer. I don't see what part is unethical.

1) the exact source of the coral is known
2) the exact risks are detailed and this info is passed onto the buyer
3) info regarding the time of shipment and the time that the coral has spent in the bag is passed onto the buyer

This is more information than I get buying frags from most LFSes and online vendors. Clearwater is hiding nothing about these sales as far as I know. Unethical would be selling these as something that was aquacultured in their tanks and then give it a fancy name when they actually had just landed at the airport. Or selling it without providing any of the information at all. Or straight up lying and saying they've been healthy and in their tanks for a while.

People buying these special buys know these risks as they are sold with this information and will be experienced reefers more than likely. Newer reefers likely won't want to take on the risk. And let's be honest. If you have a reefer with a shitty tank, no coral is going to do well healthy or not, "conditioned" or not in a shitty tank.

As a hobbyist I am in agreeance with the sentiments of Randy, Tu, and Edgar. What Ed is doing is not meaningfully different from the group buys that Arnold has run in the past that everyone seemed to be perfectly fine with. I suspect the concerns from the LFS here have little to do with ethics and a lot more to do with the low prices Ed is offering to BAR members.

A certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required in this hobby - if you were truly prioritizing ethics you wouldn't own a reef tank at all, and you certainly wouldn't operate an LFS. Personally I make every effort to manage the risks to animals I buy, maintain husbandry that is ethical, and make purchasing decisions that are "appropriate" for the size of my tank, my skill level, and the amount of time I have to invest. I see members here almost daily do things and make decisions that don't align with my personal interpretation of what is "ethical" - are we going to start publicly shaming these individuals, banning them, or continuing to add rules and policies that alienate? I don't think that is the right path forward - we won't have much of a club left before too long.

The best thing we can do to be ethical as a club is to instill a positive culture in our membership base and support new members to make the right decisions themselves. If we think our role as a club is to be the Bay Area ethical reef police we should stop doing frag swaps, shut down the PIF and BST forums, shut down ALL the LFS sub-forums, and review everyone's tank and husbandry practices before approving their membership. Does anyone want to be in that club? We need to decide where we draw the line here and what our mission statement really means in practical terms.

 

[Thales]

As a hobbyist (BOD hat off) I am in agreeance with the sentiments of Randy, Tu, and Edgar. What Ed is doing is not meaningfully different from the group buys that Arnold has run in the past that everyone seemed to be perfectly fine with. I suspect the concerns from the LFS here have little to do with ethics and a lot more to do with the low prices Ed is offering to BAR members.

I submit that that is ethics. We used to have sketchy people/stores do bag lot sales out of their garage to try to make some extra money regardless of the status of the animals (I am making no comment on the status of the animals in this thread).
Group buys should be for the benefit of the members and sponsors and club in general. One of the respected stores in the area now adays was unable to be a supporter of the club because they were a garage seller, and at the time, the club was not supporting those becase they had such an unfair advantage over an LFS business. Is Clearwater giving back to the club somehow - I mean besides cheaper corals?

A certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required in this hobby - if you were truly prioritizing ethics you wouldn't own a reef tank at all, and you certainly wouldn't operate an LFS.

I think this is an oversimplification of the ethical situation. Ethics are not cut an dried, nor obvious. I think everyone in this conversation knows this, but yet, many still seem to try to boil it down into something it isn't.

Here is a swipe at exploring the topic

Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 7: A look at Ethics – Rich Ross

 

[newfly]

As a hobbyist (BOD hat off) I am in agreeance with the sentiments of Randy, Tu, and Edgar. What Ed is doing is not meaningfully different from the group buys that Arnold has run in the past that everyone seemed to be perfectly fine with. I suspect the concerns from the LFS here have little to do with ethics and a lot more to do with the low prices Ed is offering to BAR members.

A certain amount of cognitive dissonance is required in this hobby - if you were truly prioritizing ethics you wouldn't own a reef tank at all, and you certainly wouldn't operate an LFS. Personally I make every effort to manage the risks to animals I buy, maintain husbandry that is ethical, and make purchasing decisions that are "appropriate" for the size of my tank, my skill level, and the amount of time I have to invest. I see members here almost daily do things and make decisions that don't align with my personal interpretation of what is "ethical" - are we going to start publicly shaming these individuals, banning them, or continuing to add rules and policies that alienate? I don't think that is the right path forward - we won't have much of a club left before too long.

The best thing we can do to be ethical as a club is to instill a positive culture in our membership base and support new members to make the right decisions themselves. If we think our role as a club is to be the Bay Area ethical reef police we should stop doing frag swaps, shut down the PIF and BST forums, shut down ALL the LFS sub-forums, and review everyone's tank and husbandry practices before approving their membership. Does anyone want to be in that club? We need to decide where we draw the line here and what our mission statement really means in practical terms.

I agree with this 100%

 

[MichaelB]

I submit that that is ethics. We used to have sketchy people/stores do bag lot sales out of their garage to try to make some extra money regardless of the status of the animals (I am making no comment on the status of the animals in this thread).
Group buys should be for the benefit of the members and sponsors and club in general. One of the respected stores in the area now adays was unable to be a supporter of the club because they were a garage seller, and at the time, the club was not supporting those becase they had such an unfair advantage over an LFS business. Is Clearwater giving back to the club somehow - I mean besides cheaper corals?

I think this is an oversimplification of the ethical situation. Ethics are not cut an dried, nor obvious. I think everyone in this conversation knows this, but yet, many still seem to try to boil it down into something it isn't.

Here is a swipe at exploring the topic

Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 7: A look at Ethics – Rich Ross

Honestly a very interesting read. I was Kinda taken back by the depth of its content.

 

[ClearWaterAquarium]

Quite the slippery slope to all of this. I have faith in the members of this community and their abilities and choices. There is nothing a hobbiest cant do that fish store owners can.

 

[RandyC]

This process may be time-consuming, but it significantly increases the survival rate of these delicate animals. As a member of BAR, I'm committed to upholding the organization's standards for ethical coral husbandry practices. I expect the same level of dedication from our members.

If the organization's direction is shifting towards prioritizing cost-saving measures over best practices, I question whether I'm the right sponsor for BAR. Our community is built on a shared passion for high-level reef keeping, and I believe we should maintain our commitment to excellence.

If you believe this and expect BAR members to have similar best practices and uphold high standards for taking care of livestock, you shouldn't have a problem with experienced members of BAR getting coral that have landed directly from Indonesia.

 

[Mike Yasin]

I think everyone is making excellent points here. The topic should be debated and the type of activity should be enforced by the BOD.

If this is in the spirit of a club and not an open marketplace where any vendor can come offer a buy of support to the club and then offer anything they wish, this, imo would be no different than FB groups - same target audience. If, however, this club wants to be more discerning, then enforce a consistent policy on what activities are permitted here.

I get all sides, really do. From the aspect of freedoms to the the ethical issues. Yes, Ed is
Offering a deal by transferring risk to the hobbyist - economic model. However, is the hobbyist equipped properly handle, acclimate, and house the specimen? Coming from a mariculture would require a very slow and methodical acclimation process and it would also have to be brought along with an appropriate lighting scheme - moral/ethical dilemma.